22
   

Bernie Sanders 2020

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 04:55 pm
@Lash,
Saying that "ending that occupation and enabling the Palestinians to have self-determination in an independent, democratic, economically viable state of their own is in the best interests of the United States, Israel,
the Palestinians, and the region" pigeon-holes a specific solution that hasn't worked since its inception. This solution has been a farce since its inception.

I'm criticizing Sanders for pigeon-holing a farcical solution at the expense of the rights of the Palestinians for the sake of another people's self-determination.

Like the other two state solutioners, Sanders proffers a ridiculous solution to this conflict to indulge one side involved in it.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 04:56 pm
@revelette3,
Yeah, and this endless circle of strife is only going to get much worse what with the Trump administration's change of US of policy regarding the conflict.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 05:30 pm
@InfraBlue,
So, you blame Sanders for the Israel/Pal situation. I’m too tired to laugh.

But, he didn’t say two-state. He just said self-determination. Of course, I can’t think of an alternative, but that doesn’t mean no one can. Maybe there’s some out of the box solution.

I’m wondering if you propose the dissolution of Israel or the eradication of Palestinian society.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 05:57 pm
@Lash,
I blame Sanders for supporting a ridiculous position on the conflict.

He did say, "enabling the Palestinians to have self-determination in an independent, democratic, economically viable state of their own..."

I propose one state, pluralistic, egalitarian and democratic for all of the inhabitants of Palestine.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 06:05 pm
@InfraBlue,
I assumed you were pigeon-holing his statement due to your assumption of what his words meant and I was right.

He did not say this. You did him a disservice by making your assumption.

You = wrong.



InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 06:42 pm
@Lash,
So, what does "enabling the Palestinians to have self-determination in an independent, democratic, economically viable state of their own..." mean, exactly?
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 07:02 pm
@InfraBlue,
Precisely—nothing more or less—than it says. It clarifies the content, but not the vehicle.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 10:32 pm
@Lash,
M'hm.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 07:56 am
Sanders had a solid debate last night. I think the only one who underperformed was Biden.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 09:54 am
@edgarblythe,
Bernie Sanders wrote:
Opposing antisemitism is a core value of progressivism. So it's very troubling to me that we are also seeing accusations of antisemitism used as a cynical political weapon against progressives. One of the most dangerous things Trump has done is to divide Americans by using false allegations of antisemitism, mostly regarding the US-Israel relationship. We should be very clear that it is not antisemitic to criticize the policies of the Israeli government.

When people falsely accuse Israel of imaginary atrocities, that is antisemitism.


Bernie Sanders wrote:
I see a Palestinian people yearning to make their contribution--and with so much to offer--yet crushed underneath a military occupation now over a half-century old, creating a daily reality of pain, humiliation, and resentment.

Ending that occupation and enabling the Palestinians to have self-determination in an independent, democratic, economically viable state of their own is in the best interests of the United States, Israel, the Palestinians, and the region.

So how do we make Palestinians agree to peace when they refuse to do so?


Bernie Sanders wrote:
oppressed people around the world, including Palestinians;

The Palestinians have been given every opportunity to share the land in peace. If Palestinians are oppressed, it is only because of their own aggression.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 09:55 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
These people fail to understand that the conflict between the Zionists and the Palestinians will never be resolved until the former owns its obligations to the latter, their Right of Return. If there is one thing these "progressives" should understand it is this, the Palestinians will never relinquish this right of theirs.

So in other words, the Palestinians reject peace.
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 09:56 am
@engineer,
I agree he had a solid night, what I watched of it, however, he has a one track mind that starts seeming like a broken record. Biden tries too hard to persuade people about his black support, of which he does have more than any on the stage at this point, but it ends up making him say foolish things. He had his best moment at the very beginning when he talked about how he knows every single leader and that sort of thing. (IMO which could be wrong)
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 09:56 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
What he's not doing is what almost all Democrats and Republicans uniformly do, which is to hold Israel's rights far above the occupied Palestinians'.

Israel has every right to defend themselves from an aggressor who refuses to make peace with them.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 09:57 am
@revelette3,
revelette3 wrote:
I find it hard to sympathize with the State of Israel at all I must confess;

How dare those uppity Jews want to peacefully live in their own homeland.


revelette3 wrote:
However, if those who were displaced can return, of necessity they will be taking back their lands which will affect the ones who live on that land now. Moreover, it will increase the size of non-Jews which most Israelis view as a natural threat to their self determination in the sense they will have more a voting block if they are allowed to vote in a free democracy. I can't see it happening in the real world.

You're right. Israel is not going to allow themselves to be destroyed.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 09:58 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Yeah, and this endless circle of strife is only going to get much worse what with the Trump administration's change of US of policy regarding the conflict.

Palestinians are easily suppressed with heavy bombardment. Their refusal to make peace isn't going to be a problem here.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 10:02 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
How dare those uppity Jews want to peacefully live in their own homeland
.

How dare those uppity Palestinians and Arabs want to live in their own homeland.

Quote:
You're right. Israel is not going to allow themselves to be destroyed.


Which is why there isn't going to be a solution until some of those on the hard line right in Israel start to consider Palestinians and Arabs are humans beings with as much as rights to live free in their homeland as they themselves are.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 10:07 am
@revelette3,
revelette3 wrote:
How dare those uppity Palestinians and Arabs want to live in their own homeland.

No one is telling them that they can't. The Palestinians were only asked to share the land with Israel as two states living in peace side-by-side.


revelette3 wrote:
Which is why there isn't going to be a solution until some of those on the hard line right in Israel start to consider Palestinians and Arabs are humans beings with as much as rights to live free in their homeland as they themselves are.

That is incorrect. The absence of peace has nothing to do with the Israeli right. It is the Palestinians who refuse to make peace.
revelette3
 
  4  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 10:27 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
“The two state solution was pushed on the Palestinians as a compromise after having lost most of their homeland,” Palestinian academic Dr Yara Hawari told TRT World.

“It was solidified as the only solution by the Oslo Peace Accords which attempted to stage the process of Palestinian statehood,” she added.

Ignoring key issues

During the formation of Israel in 1948, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forcibly evicted from their homes and sent into exile across the Middle East. They and their descendants continue to live outside of their homeland with no right of return.

Their plight was further compounded after the Arab defeat in the 1967 war, which saw Israel capture the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, which remain under occupation to this day.

According to Hawari, the Oslo accords never addressed the key issues of Palestinian refugees being allowed to return home, or the final status of Jerusalem, and was therefore no solution to the conflict.

“The two state solution fails to address the wrong doing of the 1948 Nakba,” she said, adding:


https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/for-palestinians-the-two-state-solution-was-dead-long-before-netanyahu-win-25751

I found the above after googling "two state solution ignores right of return." I did that to get a different perspective than the mainstream one. I don't pretend to know all about the ME and it's whole region's issues. In fact, I am just a housewife in KY with a computer. Over the last 10 or 15 years, I have been interested in the subject and so as a result came to see the Palestinian side of it. I have since kind of moved away from the issue because it is beyond frustrating arguing with folks such as yourself who refuse to see from the outset the Palestinian side of it and also because I am just not knowledgeable enough nor smart enough to know the history enough to keep up the debate beyond the rudiments of it. It would have to take a lifetime study of it or a career of it to really understand it completely and not get caught up in rhetoric.

With that, such as it is, I am going to leave it with you as I know all too well your side of it and there is no sense in going round and round in it.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 10:44 am
@revelette3,
So long as the Palestinians refuse to share the land with Israel, there will not be peace.

It is not fair to blame Israel for the fact that Palestinians refuse to share the land with them.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 11:21 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
These people fail to understand that the conflict between the Zionists and the Palestinians will never be resolved until the former owns its obligations to the latter, their Right of Return. If there is one thing these "progressives" should understand it is this, the Palestinians will never relinquish this right of theirs.

So in other words, the Palestinians reject peace.

The Palestinians and the Israelis both reject peace based on their rejection of the other's conditions.
 

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