George Galloway blasts the Senate

Whooda Thunk- I wonder how much of Steve's peevishness is due to the underperformance of the Economies in Europe and their rather meager living conditions when compared to the USA.

I have traveled in Europe extensively and found that Envy is at the root of most of the criticism leveled at us.

But, anecdotal evidence is the worst kind so---

Dr. Frederick Bergstrom, President of the Swedish Research Institute of Trade published a new study which said:

"If the European Uniion were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, GREAT BRITAIN, and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU- countries( EU15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with such states as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA"

No wonder Steve is miffed- I wouldn't want to live in an Arkansas, Mississippi or West Virginia Economy either.

link- http://www.timbro.com/euvusa/

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Thanks Set and of course I reciprocate.

And I respect George's position, and would do more so if he would cut out the one word dismissals.

Thank you, Steve. In the context of a dialogue with Setanta the slightest kind word for me is a boon. I have edited the "one word dismissals" out of my last post. You are right: they were unnecessary.

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Chic - once again, please, with a link where no incomprehensible password request is necessary for access? What language WAS this at your link, btw?

Thank you.

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Once again, Chic's link as posted:
http://www.timbro.com/euvusa/

Scandinavian? Finnish or Hungarian? Please advise.

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As I'm not peeved nor miffed none whatsoever.

I 'm tired of Whooda's juvenile remarks.

And I resent people who funded the IRA telling us Brits and me in particular that we in Europe are living comfortable cozy little lives (but apparantly no cozier than Arkansas) immune from the ever present threat of al Qaida terrorists flying a plane into a power station 50 miles away.

So no not miffed. Pretty angry actually.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

ok subsitute modern for mature.

How long before the US is a mature state? Judging from your posts and avatar, quite a long while yet.

Let's see now, who was it lecturing about "unnecessary personal invective" earlier? He must have crashed through the slats of his soapbox and plumb disappeared.

<<You don't approve of my avatar either?! Well ... I suppose I should be preparing Mrs. Thunk for the absence of your Xmas card this holiday season ... Crying or Very sad

>>

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I believe Dr Bergstrom overestimates our relative wealth. I believe both Norway and Switzerland enjoy GDP per capita (on a PPP basis) a good deal higher than ours.

While I strongly fault the leaders of "Old Europe" (less the UK) for their blindness to economic reality and apparent willingness to sacrifice the real interests of their countries to appease the illusions they themselves planted in the public minds of their people - all for their own political survival. I don't find anything to fault in the rate at which they are moving towards the creation of a union. I do believe there is an analogy to be made between their process and ours - though they are not comparable in every detail.

It is worth remembering that we started with a common language and legal tradition and were united in a bitter and rather bloody five-year revolutionary war. After that it took us another eight years to come up with a workable constitution, and then another 70 years and an even more bloody civil war to work out the remaining contradictions.

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the question of your avatar was to do with maturity.

I think it reflects the person pretty well in your case.

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hofT- I am stunned. I have on my desk- a copy of a sheet dated 06/04/2005 which bears the link
http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/

I assure you, I obtained this Copy of EU VERSUS USA in English on that date. I will do more research to see if I can find a link that gives the same information I have.

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chiczaira wrote:

Dr. Frederick Bergstrom, President of the Swedish Research Institute of Trade published a new study which said:

"If the European Uniion were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, GREAT BRITAIN, and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU- countries( EU15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with such states as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA"

And Frederick Bergström also said that Sweden is poorer than all but West Virginia and Mississippi. Yet Sweden ranks high on broader indexes of societal health as well as economic competitiveness, and the same was about most all other EU countries.
The keys to Sweden's success lie in the social and economic system it has developed since the Great Depression, sometimes called the "Swedish model," which has created a stunning degree of equality among its citizens and a physical infrastructure that is the envy of richer countries, Frederick Bergström says in his survey.

source: the full above quoted survey by the Handelns Utredningsinstitut ("The Swedish Research Institute of Trade (HUI) conducts research on general economic policy issues and particularly questions that are of importance to the retail and wholesale trade industries.")

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hofT- Try the new link I just posted.

And, George OB. You may be right, of course, about Norway and Switzerland--( you usually are) but the best information that I can come up with indeed shows that Dr, Bergstrom is correct.

The GDP for 2004( estimated) shows what Dr, Bergstrom has stated in his article--that the USA is second only to Luxembourg in the world when GDP-per capita is measured.

Steve may be unnerved to hear that the United Kingdom ranks 19th with a GDP of $29,600.

See-

http://www.cia.gov/cia.publications.factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

As I'm not peeved nor miffed none whatsoever.

I 'm tired of Whooda's juvenile remarks.

And I resent people who funded the IRA telling us Brits and me in particular that we in Europe are living comfortable cozy little lives (but apparantly no cozier than Arkansas) immune from the ever present threat of al Qaida terrorists flying a plane into a power station 50 miles away.

So no not miffed. Pretty angry actually.

The anger flows both way, Steve, and I think mine is as valid as yours.

Incidentally, I've never donated a dime to the Irish Republican Army and I'm guessing 99.999% of Americans haven't either and yet you continue to make your blanket statements about Americans. Occasionally you backtrack and claim your comments are only directed at our president, but one needs only to scroll up to find your actual words. When direct issues are addressed, you skirt them entirely, declare comparisons invalid, or simply become shrill.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I'm not here to make friends and I damned well don't care how you feel about me, my avatar, my dog, or my politics. I do care that we converse, angrily or happily, on an even playing field, and I resent your continual efforts to slant that field.

Chiczaira makes a most valid point about envy. When I have more time I may or may not address the unholy alliance of obstructionist American liberals and envious Old Europe-eans who partner on sites such as this to further their personal agendas under the guise of humanitarianism or inflated outrage against the war in Iraq.

In the meantime, you may want to attempt removing that log from your eye, Steve.

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Walter- I provided a link- You did not. You must forgive me if I am skeptical of the "broader indexes of societal health" and "economic competitiveness". I hope that you do understand that hard emprical evidence trumps vague sociological conjecture.

PS- Germany comes in at an anemic 24th place GDP---$28,700.

Do you have a link where I can find evidence of the "economic competiveness" and "indexes of societal health" expressed in hard data?

Tnank You!

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chiczaira wrote:

I have traveled in Europe extensively and found that Envy is at the root of most of the criticism leveled at us.

I have to agree entirely and have thought so for some time now.

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JustWonders- I know you have heard that "no good deed goes unpunished" and "The best way to turn a friend into an enemy is to loan him money"

Our largesse has indeed turned the European "intelligensia" into our enemies. The French have always looked down on our Culture, adopting from time to time such curiosities as Jerry Lewis.

Hard data matters. We are far more affluent. They can see it every day on the TV, and on the Internet. As Tom Friedman has reported to us- "The World is Flat" and the Europeans do not like what they see in the USA.

Envy is the most vicious of the Seven Deadly Sins because it leads to so many other sins.

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JustWonders wrote:

chiczaira wrote:
I have traveled in Europe extensively and found that Envy is at the root of most of the criticism leveled at us.

I have to agree entirely and have thought so for some time now.

Well I wonder what that strange opinion is based on. It sounds to me not unlike "They hate our freedoms", and about as credible.

Speaking as a european who knows a lot of similar, I can assure you it is nonsense. But I can see why you choose to believe that....the alternative would be to take at face value these very criticisms, not a comfortable prospect.

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McTag- Sir- You may not have noticed that in the post where I gave my ANECDOTAL opinion, I labeled it as such and then indicated that much more empirical evidence was needed. May I suggest that you go back to re-read my post?

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IMO ... the collapse of the Soviet Union removed the only threat that kept that envy and animosity in check. What you see today is an aging generation that has been forced to accept 2nd-tier economies and tag-along foreign policies due to the sins of their fathers. They know time is running out for them and they long for the status and glories they feel they have been denied. Rumsfeld was undiplomatic when he referred to them as Old Europe, but he was right on the money in his assessment and everyone knows it.

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Everybody - could we please have a brief moment of silence here in honor of a pilot lost today flying one of the most difficult aircraft in takeoff and even more difficult at landing?

http://www.latimes.com/media/thumbnails/2005-06/18137836.jpg

Thank you all very much in advance.

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George Galloway blasts the Senate

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