George Galloway blasts the Senate

well i did, after some hesitation, read your last post...

Cartography is second only to football in popularity among the British working classes.
Listen in on any casual conversation in the pub or at work and the names Jodocus Hondius and Pieter van den Keere are as familiar as Jaap Stamm and Ruud van Nistlerooy. I cant tell you how much excitement there was when the new Peter's projection was published, and fierce debate over its merits wrt Mercator. (Generally most people thought Peters should play as a lone striker, and Nistelrooy drop back a bit).

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

The essence of the EU is pooled sovereignty. An idea quite beyond most Americans.

Your disdain for "most Americans" is appalling. As for "pooled sovereignty," you might save that lecture for the French and Dutch as most Americans are quite aware of states' rights within our union, and at last check, we still have a ratified constitution that guarantees them.

Ditto regarding your comments on steel tariffs. The AK Steel mill in my town is barely staying afloat as it deals with steel dumping and other forms of foreign subsidies. (BTW, does "Airbus" mean anything to you? It does to the folks over at Boeing.)

Let's see ... Kyoto's been addressed, but you skirted that ...

As for asking for your 9-11 money back, I'm sure there are many here who would oblige if only you would be so kind as to return all those ships you got in Lend/Lease.

But that would involve acknowledging just exactly whose "miserable asses" got saved back during that rough patch, wouldn't it?

Excuse me while I go vomit a couple of quarts ...

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Whooda, I yield to no one in my admiration of your ability to write entertaining prose, but would you leave off with the WWII crap already? We get enough of that from GeorgeOB. Lend-lease ships, men and materiel were gratefully deployed and expended, the British Empire got dismantled and America got scores of bases around the world. Millions got killed. Please don't present it like one-way charity or starry-eyed altruism, that it wasn't. But thanks anyway, better late than never. :wink:

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McTag: Sorry for piling the WWII "crap" higher and thicker, but I assumed we all had our waders on in this thread. As you well know, the Lend-Lease reference was merely in reply to Steve's less-than-altruistic threat to cancel payment on the world's checks to the 9-11 victims. As for your ... err ... synopsis of the war and post-war events, I'll probably be keeping my boots on for the time being.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

The essence of the EU is pooled sovereignty. An idea quite beyond most Americans.

And evidently quite beyond most Europeans as well.

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The US is the most powerful nation on earth, and I stick by my claim that it is the first and only truly global superpower.

It faces no other power block in opposition.

We exert very little power in many areas of the world. We are certainly no more dominant in the areas in which we do exert power than were Rome, the British, French, Hapsburg,Russian, Spanish or Ottoman empires in theirs - indeed generally far less. There is substantial opposition to the U.S, in many areas of the world and a very serious economic and strategic challenge to the U.S. and the entire Western World developing in China. There is also the distemper of a Moslem world that has long been with alternatives of either thug Tyrannies and Islamist fanatics - unless we can develop a third alternative. It too could become a serious challenge. Europe, in keeping with their 20th century tradition remains blind to both.

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America is de facto the leading nation on earth and it has a moral duty to give leadership on behalf of the whole planet.

This is certainly a novel concept. Which of our predecessors has acknowledged such an obligation?

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Instead we see narrow self interest. It started with Bush's imposition of steel tarrifs, and went on through rejection of Kyoto, ICC, bio weapons treaties, you name it and the US gives every impression of not giving a damn for the rest of the world. Unfair I hear you say....well it might be but I used the word impression and you can do something about that....

The steel tariffs were temporary: they have since expired and were certainly no worse than equivalent things done by all of our trading partners in Europe and Asia. The ICC and Kyoto are absurdities that we wisely rejected. neither has or will do anyone any good. Where is it written that Gulliver should assist the Lilliputians in tieing him down?

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Thinking back to 911, we were all shocked. Many of us gave support and money. There was such good will towards the US, and Bush has blown that political capital as if never mattered. Many people now feel like demanding their money back.

Your sympathy, if it was so conditioned, wasn't ever worth much, and its withdral won't matter much either

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

The essence of the EU is pooled sovereignty. An idea quite beyond most Americans.

Although i consider it reasonable that you may become irrascible through dealing with georgeob1's self-serving and unrealistic assessments of life and the world, this does not warrant making such unnecessary slurs against all Americans.

The issue of sovereignty was crucial to the successful writing of our constitution. A compromise was finally worked out whereby all states--proportionately represented by population in the House--were to be equally represented in the Senate, in which the powers of sovereignty reside. The European Union has failed to successfully address the issue of sovereignty. Although the United States constitution need not necessarily be a model for Europe, the institution of the Senate might well be. So long as the issue of sovereignty remains unresolved, the European Union is in fact, no union at all, at least in the political sense.

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There was no conditions on our support for America during the 911 crisis. At that moment in time, Bush could have acted like a world leader, THE world leader. Instead he exploited the tragedy and used it as an excuse for American military deployment in areas of the world where the US has or hopes to have vital oil and gas interests. The victims of terrorism will always have our support. Those who commit acts of terrorism or who exploit the victims of terrorism will not.

Whooda my anger is with Bush and not with the American people, but if you want to interpret it that way, then well frankly I dont care. People can read enough of my posts to know where I stand.

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Well said, Steve . . . you have my respect on these issues, by the by, if you didn't already understand that.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

... my anger is with Bush and not with the American people, but if you want to interpret it that way, then well frankly I dont care. People can read enough of my posts to know where I stand.

I think enough people here have called you to task regarding your comments on "pooled sovereignty" and how it is "beyond most Americans" to believe your fluff comments above.

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Thanks Set and of course I reciprocate.

And I respect George's position, and would do more so if he would cut out the one word dismissals.

There are others however, in particular that stupid boy with the catapult, who lets himself down through unnecessary personal invective.

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I must bow to your churlishness there, Steve.

And back to the issue of "pooled sovereignty" ... ?

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As George said, its beyond most Europeans too. Its not an easy concept to deal with when you are brought up in a particular tribe.

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Nice try, Steve. I'll not attempt to speak for George, but I believe you're giving yourself quite a bit of latitude by using his words that sounded rather sarcastic to me when he posted them.

BTW, I'll assure you the Ohio "tribe" is nowhere akin to the California or New York tribes, but we do manage to pool our sovereignty quite nicely.

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Heck, the California tribes have changed so much during the past several decades, even I don't recognize "us" any more! LOL

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The EU project is unique in bringing together mature states with their separate histories, polities, economies, languages cultures and God knows what else. A comparison with the United States is not valid imo.

adding

supposing however some bright spark had suggested taking some of the "heat" out of the cold war by having joint US USSR sovereignty over Alaska? How would Alaskans feel about that?

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Steve - with respect, Europe gets united all the time.

The Romans did it, Charlemagne ditto, Napoleon, the Hapsburgs, Hitler, all did it before the current EU and the Russians managed the eastern part pretty well.

In that sense the EU project isn't unique - it dates at least as far back as Tacitus, who wrote in "Agricola" the words of a speech given by a (presumed) Scotsman in a speech to rouse his troops before a battle with the Roman legions"

"They make a solitude, and call it peace!"
Smile

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

The EU project is unique in bringing together mature states with their separate histories, polities, economies, languages cultures and God knows what else. A comparison with the United States is not valid imo.

I think that reveals how little you really know about the diversity of histories, politics, economies, languages, and cultures within the United States. How many centuries should we wait before we meet your criteria of a mature state?

The Alaska comparison is more valid? For God's sake, you picked one of the few territories we actually paid cash for as a more valid comparison?

(Hint: Try the SW and Mexico ... Twisted Evil

)

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"Mature states" in any context is an oxymoron.

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ok subsitute modern for mature.

How long before the US is a mature state? Judging from your posts and avatar, quite a long while yet.

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Whooda - true, Alaska was paid for in cash, at the time known as "Seward's folly". Seward was smarter than the average bear Smile

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George Galloway blasts the Senate

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