1
   

Impeach Kennedy for Being Supremacist Judge?Or Just Kill Him

 
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 02:47 pm
mysteryman wrote:
There have been many court rulings that state that minors can have an abortion without parental consent or notification.
That seems a direct contradiction to what you wrote.
Now,if they are able to make reasonable and prudent decisions concerning their own best interests when it comes to abortion,then why arent they able to make the same decisions when it comes to committing a capitol crime and facing the consequences?


i think you're also trying to have it both ways, by implying that they can't make "reasonable and prudent decisions" about abortion, yet ought to be held accountable for becoming pregnant by taking up the duties of parenthood.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 03:19 pm
yitwail wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
There have been many court rulings that state that minors can have an abortion without parental consent or notification.
That seems a direct contradiction to what you wrote.
Now,if they are able to make reasonable and prudent decisions concerning their own best interests when it comes to abortion,then why arent they able to make the same decisions when it comes to committing a capitol crime and facing the consequences?


i think you're also trying to have it both ways, by implying that they can't make "reasonable and prudent decisions" about abortion, yet ought to be held accountable for becoming pregnant by taking up the duties of parenthood.


Actually,I'm saying the exact opposite.
If they can make reasonable and prudent decisions regarding pregnancy and abortion,then they can make reasonable and prudent decisions about everything else,AND take the consequences of those decisions.
If they CHOOSE to commit murder,then they CHOOSE to accept the consequences,even if that means the death penalty.
Its all about personalCHOICE,and accepting the consequences.
Its not about anything else.

Remember,it was Debra Law that said..."Our society does not trust children to make reasonable and prudent decisions concerning their own best interests, so we mandate them to be under the care, custody, and control of their parents until they are 18 years old."

So,if they can make choicees about one thing,then they can make choices about other things.
If not,then we take that one choice away from them.
You cant have it both ways.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 03:42 pm
mysteryman wrote:
So,if they can make choicees about one thing,then they can make choices about other things.
If not,then we take that one choice away from them.
You cant have it both ways.


alright then, supposing i concede your point, how does it apply to boys being sentenced to capital punishment? not too many of them choose to have abortions.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 05:09 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Debra,
You said..."Our society does not trust children to make reasonable and prudent decisions concerning their own best interests, so we mandate them to be under the care, custody, and control of their parents until they are 18 years old.

Tell me,how does that reconcile with this...
http://www.aclunc.org/aclunews/news597/minor-abortion.html

There have been many court rulings that state that minors can have an abortion without parental consent or notification.
That seems a direct contradiction to what you wrote.
Now,if they are able to make reasonable and prudent decisions concerning their own best interests when it comes to abortion,then why arent they able to make the same decisions when it comes to committing a capitol crime and facing the consequences?

It cant be both ways.


I don't understand where you see a conflict or a contradiction.

I believe that abortion laws in most states require parental consent. However, a minor is allowed to obtain substitute consent through a judicial bypass mechanism. If a minor can convince a court that it is not in her best interest to notify her parents and obtain their consent, the court can waive the requirement. There is obviously adult oversight (whether it be parental or judicial) concerning any decision by a minor to obtain an abortion.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 05:21 pm
FYI
Quote:
USA > Domestic Politics
from the April 14, 2005 edition

Conservatives near lock on US courts

Senators will consider new judicial nominees Thursday. GOP-appointed judges already control 10 of 13 appeals courts.

By Warren Richey | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

As Democrats and Republicans in Washington prepare for an expected showdown over the use of filibusters to stall judicial nominees, President Bush is already well on his way to recasting the nation's federal appeals courts in a more conservative mold. Republican appointees now constitute a majority of judges on 10 of the nation's 13 federal appeals courts. As few as three more lifetime appointments on key courts would tip the balance in favor of GOP appointees on all but one appeals court - the Ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco.

Continued
http://csmonitor.com/2005/0414/p01s02-uspo.html
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 05:51 pm
mysteryman wrote:
If they can make reasonable and prudent decisions regarding pregnancy and abortion,then they can make reasonable and prudent decisions about everything else,AND take the consequences of those decisions.
If they CHOOSE to commit murder,then they CHOOSE to accept the consequences,even if that means the death penalty.
Its all about personalCHOICE,and accepting the consequences.
Its not about anything else.


Look up the definition of "child" in your state statutes. You will see that a child is defined as person who has not yet reached the age of majority (18 years old in most states).

I don't find any logic in your argument when you compare a teenager who becomes pregnant with a teenager who commits a crime. In both cases, the teenager has used poor judgment. If they were older, more mature, and possessed greater powers of reason, perhaps they would not have engaged in conduct that had devastating consequences.

The question becomes -- how does society deal with children who make poor choices? What are the consequences? Do we punish young and foolish pregnant teenagers by forcing them into parenthood when they are but children themselves? Do we punish young and foolish teenage criminal offenders by putting them to death?

With respect to consequences for immature decisions, you are arguing if we allow pregnant teenagers to obtain abortions without parental consent, then we must allow society to execute teenage offenders.

Your argument makes absolutely no sense at all. It's illogical.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 06:32 pm
Parental consent
BELLOTTI v. BAIRD, 443 U.S. 622 (1979)

Quote:

II

A child, merely on account of his minority, is not beyond the protection of the Constitution. As the Court said in In re Gault, 387 U.S. 1, 13 (1967), "whatever may be their precise impact, neither the Fourteenth Amendment nor the Bill of Rights is for adults alone." 12 This observation, of course, is but the beginning of the analysis. The Court long has recognized that the status of minors under the law is unique in many respects. As Mr. Justice Frankfurter aptly put it: "Children have a very special place in life which law should reflect. Legal theories and their phrasing in other cases readily lead to fallacious reasoning if uncritically transferred to determination [443 U.S. 622, 634] of a State's duty towards children." May v. Anderson, 345 U.S. 528, 536 (1953) (concurring opinion). The unique role in our society of the family, the institution by which "we inculcate and pass down many of our most cherished values, moral and cultural," Moore v. East Cleveland, 431 U.S. 494, 503 -504 (1977) (plurality opinion), requires that constitutional principles be applied with sensitivity and flexibility to the special needs of parents and children. We have recognized three reasons justifying the conclusion that the constitutional rights of children cannot be equated with those of adults: the peculiar vulnerability of children; their inability to make critical decisions in an informed, mature manner; and the importance of the parental role in child rearing.

A

The Court's concern for the vulnerability of children is demonstrated in its decisions dealing with minors' claims to constitutional protection against deprivations of liberty or property interests by the State. With respect to many of these claims, we have concluded that the child's right is virtually coextensive with that of an adult. For example, the Court has held that the Fourteenth Amendment's guarantee against the deprivation of liberty without due process of law is applicable to children in juvenile delinquency proceedings. In re Gault, supra. In particular, minors involved in such proceedings are entitled to adequate notice, the assistance of counsel, and the opportunity to confront their accusers. They can be found guilty only upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and they may assert the privilege against compulsory self-incrimination. In re Winship, 397 U.S. 358 (1970); In re Gault, supra. See also Ingraham v. Wright, 430 U.S. 651, 674 (1977) (corporal punishment of schoolchildren implicates constitutionally protected liberty interest); cf. Breed v. Jones, 421 U.S. 519 (1975) (Double Jeopardy Clause prohibits prosecuting juvenile as an adult after an adjudicatory finding in juvenile court that he had violated a criminal statute). [443 U.S. 622, 635] Similarly, in Goss v. Lopez, 419 U.S. 565 (1975), the Court held that children may not be deprived of certain property interests without due process.

These rulings have not been made on the uncritical assumption that the constitutional rights of children are indistinguishable from those of adults. Indeed, our acceptance of juvenile courts distinct from the adult criminal justice system assumes that juvenile offenders constitutionally may be treated differently from adults. In order to preserve this separate avenue for dealing with minors, the Court has said that hearings in juvenile delinquency cases need not necessarily "`conform with all of the requirements of a criminal trial or even of the usual administrative hearing.'" In re Gault, supra, at 30, quoting Kent v. United States, 383 U.S. 541, 562 (1966). Thus, juveniles are not constitutionally entitled to trial by jury in delinquency adjudications. McKeiver v. Pennsylvania, 403 U.S. 528 (1971). Viewed together, our cases show that although children generally are protected by the same constitutional guarantees against governmental deprivations as are adults, the State is entitled to adjust its legal system to account for children's vulnerability and their needs for "concern, . . . sympathy, and . . . paternal attention." Id., at 550 (plurality opinion).


B

Second, the Court has held that the States validly may limit the freedom of children to choose for themselves in the making of important, affirmative choices with potentially serious consequences. These rulings have been grounded in the recognition that, during the formative years of childhood and adolescence, minors often lack the experience, perspective, and judgment to recognize and avoid choices that could be detrimental to them. 13 [443 U.S. 622, 636]

Ginsberg v. New York, 390 U.S. 629 (1968), illustrates well the Court's concern over the inability of children to make mature choices, as the First Amendment rights involved are clear examples of constitutionally protected freedoms of choice. At issue was a criminal conviction for selling sexually oriented magazines to a minor under the age of 17 in violation of a New York state law. It was conceded that the conviction could not have stood under the First Amendment if based upon a sale of the same material to an adult. Id., at 634. Notwithstanding the importance the Court always has attached to First Amendment rights, it concluded that "even where there is an invasion of protected freedoms `the power of the state to control the conduct of children reaches beyond the scope of its authority over adults . . .,'" id., at 638, quoting Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U.S. 158, 170 (1944). 14 The Court was convinced that the New York Legislature rationally could conclude that the sale to children of the magazines in question presented a danger against which they should be guarded. Ginsberg, supra, at 641. It therefore rejected the [443 U.S. 622, 637] argument that the New York law violated the constitutional rights of minors. 15


C

Third, the guiding role of parents in the upbringing of their children justifies limitations on the freedoms of minors. The State commonly protects its youth from adverse governmental action and from their own immaturity by requiring parental consent to or involvement in important decisions by minors. 16 But an additional and more important justification for state deference to parental control over children is that "[t]he child is not the mere creature of the State; those who nurture him and direct his destiny have the right, coupled with the high duty, to recognize and prepare him for additional obligations." Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510, 535 (1925). "The duty to prepare the child for `additional obligations' . . . [443 U.S. 622, 638] must be read to include the inculcation of moral standards, religious beliefs, and elements of good citizenship." Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205, 233 (1972). This affirmative process of teaching, guiding, and inspiring by precept and example is essential to the growth of young people into mature, socially responsible citizens.

We have believed in this country that this process, in large part, is beyond the competence of impersonal political institutions. Indeed, affirmative sponsorship of particular ethical, religious, or political beliefs is something we expect the State not to attempt in a society constitutionally committed to the ideal of individual liberty and freedom of choice. Thus, "t is cardinal with us that the custody, care and nurture of the child reside first in the parents, whose primary function and freedom include preparation for obligations the state can neither supply nor hinder." Prince v. Massachusetts, supra, at 166 (emphasis added).

Unquestionably, there are many competing theories about the most effective way for parents to fulfill their central role in assisting their children on the way to responsible adulthood. While we do not pretend any special wisdom on this subject, we cannot ignore that central to many of these theories, and deeply rooted in our Nation's history and tradition, is the belief that the parental role implies a substantial measure of authority over one's children. Indeed, "constitutional interpretation has consistently recognized that the parents' claim to authority in their own household to direct the rearing of their children is basic in the structure of our society." Ginsberg v. New York, supra, at 639.

Properly understood, then, the tradition of parental authority is not inconsistent with our tradition of individual liberty; rather, the former is one of the basic presuppositions of the latter. Legal restrictions on minors, especially those supportive of the parental role, may be important to the child's chances for the full growth and maturity that make eventual [443 U.S. 622, 639] participation in a free society meaningful and rewarding. 17 Under the Constitution, the State can "properly conclude that parents and others, teachers for example, who have [the] primary responsibility for children's well-being are entitled to the support of laws designed to aid discharge of that responsibility." Ginsberg v. New York, 390 U.S., at 639 . 18


III

With these principles in mind, we consider the specific constitutional questions presented by these appeals. In 12S, Massachusetts has attempted to reconcile the constitutional right of a woman, in consultation with her physician, to choose to terminate her pregnancy as established by Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), and Doe v. Bolton, 410 U.S. 179 (1973), with the special interest of the State in encouraging an unmarried pregnant minor to seek the advice of her parents in making the important decision whether or not to bear a child. . . .

But we are concerned here with a constitutional right to seek an abortion. The abortion decision differs in important ways from other decisions that may be made during minority. The need to preserve the constitutional right and the unique nature of the abortion decision, especially when made by a minor, require a State to act with particular sensitivity when it legislates to foster parental involvement in this matter.

A

The pregnant minor's options are much different from those facing a minor in other situations, such as deciding whether to marry. A minor not permitted to marry before the age of majority is required simply to postpone her decision. She and her intended spouse may preserve the opportunity for later marriage should they continue to desire it. A pregnant adolescent, however, cannot preserve for long the possibility of aborting, which effectively expires in a matter of weeks from the onset of pregnancy.

Moreover, the potentially severe detriment facing a pregnant woman, see Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S., at 153 , is not mitigated by her minority. Indeed, considering her probable education, employment skills, financial resources, and emotional maturity, unwanted motherhood may be exceptionally burdensome for a minor. In addition, the fact of having a child brings with it adult legal responsibility, for parenthood, like attainment of the age of majority, is one of the traditional criteria for the termination of the legal disabilities of minority. In sum, there are few situations in which denying a minor the right to make an important decision will have consequences so grave and indelible.

Yet, an abortion may not be the best choice for the minor. The circumstances in which this issue arises will vary widely. In a given case, alternatives to abortion, such as marriage to the father of the child, arranging for its adoption, or assuming the responsibilities of motherhood with the assured support of [443 U.S. 622, 643] family, may be feasible and relevant to the minor's best interests. Nonetheless, the abortion decision is one that simply cannot be postponed, or it will be made by default with far-reaching consequences.

For these reasons, as we held in Planned Parenthood of Central Missouri v. Danforth, 428 U.S., at 74 , "the State may not impose a blanket provision . . . requiring the consent of a parent or person in loco parentis as a condition for abortion of an unmarried minor during the first 12 weeks of her pregnancy." Although, as stated in Part II, supra, such deference to parents may be permissible with respect to other choices facing a minor, the unique nature and consequences of the abortion decision make it inappropriate "to give a third party an absolute, and possibly arbitrary, veto over the decision of the physician and his patient to terminate the patient's pregnancy, regardless of the reason for withholding the consent." 428 U.S., at 74 . We therefore conclude that if the State decides to require a pregnant minor to obtain one or both parents' consent to an abortion, it also must provide an alternative procedure 22 whereby authorization for the abortion can be obtained.

A pregnant minor is entitled in such a proceeding to show either: (1) that she is mature enough and well enough informed to make her abortion decision, in consultation with her physician, independently of her parents' wishes; 23 or [443 U.S. 622, 644] (2) that even if she is not able to make this decision independently, the desired abortion would be in her best interests. The proceeding in which this showing is made must assure that a resolution of the issue, and any appeals that may follow, will be completed with anonymity and sufficient expedition to provide an effective opportunity for an abortion to be obtained. In sum, the procedure must ensure that the provision requiring parental consent does not in fact amount to the "absolute, and possibly arbitrary, veto" that was found impermissible in Danforth. Ibid.

0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 10:43 pm
I must congratulate Debra Law on her fine exposition of legal points and her wonderful outline of pertinent legal cases. I am not a lawyer. However,I am certain that the latest rulings concerning the ability of children to make prudent choices concerning the commission of a crime along with the fact that their reasoning systems are not completely formed will be utilized in mischevious ways in the USSC in the future. What can you expect from a group which elicits a right of privacy--a right not enumerated in the constitution. Any set of judges who can discover important things in the "penumbra" of the Bill of Rights are not to be trusted.

AU 1929's information concerning the fact that Republican Appointees make up the majority of 10 of 13 Appealate Court Appointees may indeed be ominous for those on the left. However. mere appointment by one party or the other is not a guarantee that they will operate under the same set of principles maintained by the appointing party.

Justice David Souter is the perfect example. Reputed to be a conservative when appointed, he has voted regularly with the left wing of the court.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 11:48 pm
chiczaira wrote:
I must congratulate Debra Law on her fine exposition of legal points and her wonderful outline of pertinent legal cases. I am not a lawyer. However,I am certain that the latest rulings concerning the ability of children to make prudent choices concerning the commission of a crime along with the fact that their reasoning systems are not completely formed will be utilized in mischevious ways in the USSC in the future.




AGAIN, Children and adults are NOT similarly situated in society. We have ALWAYS recognized that children lack the ability to make critical decisions in an informed, mature manner. We have ALWAYS recognized that laws ought to be adjusted to account for children's vulnerability and their needs for concern, sympathy, and paternal attention. This is not some new or evil ideology that suddenly found its way into a Supreme Court decision. There is no mischief involved. You're ringing a false alarm.

chiczaira wrote:
What can you expect from a group which elicits a right of privacy--a right not enumerated in the constitution. Any set of judges who can discover important things in the "penumbra" of the Bill of Rights are not to be trusted.


Chiczaira:

Why do you require a right to be explicitly enumerated in the constitution? The constitution is not a document that grants rights -- it's a document that establishes a limited government.

Our rights are not derived from the constitution. Our rights are not granted to us by our government. We are born with inalienable rights. We formed government to secure our rights. We formed a government of limited powers. The government is our servant -- not our master.

Your statement is akin to proclaiming that we transferred ownership of our rights over to the government when the constitution was written except for the rights which were reserved in the Bill of Rights. If you truly believe that, it is really sad.

How can we the people enjoy the blessings of liberty upon which this country was founded if we have no right to privacy -- no right to live our lives free from unreasonable government intrusion into our private affairs?
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 12:24 am
I do indeed agree that Children and adults are not similarly situated in society. I would never hold any other position. I am, however, having difficulty understanding why a 17 and a half year old murderer is to be exempt from the gas chamber( for the record, I am against the death penalty for all) because his moral sense is not yet formed, while a fourteen year old girl has enough moral sense to choose an abortion without any kind of counseling.

I am well aware that the Constitution establishes limited government. The Federalists were most adamant about that point. However, it can not be denied that the amendments to the constitution( which are part of the constitution, are they not) have added many "rights".

I am sure that your Constitutional Law classes made it clear that the addition of rights mean an addition of responsiblities. The USSC and the people, through their elected representatives, will determine whether they want to take on the burden of extra responsiblities and whether the new "right" is really a compelling one which the state must grant.
Richard A. Posner( I am sure you are familiar with this great jurist) has written--"Liberal Constitutional Theorists want the Supreme Court to recognized a number of new constitutional rights...A responsible defense of a program for increasing the number of
constitutional rights would require the proponent to consider the aggregrate impact, whether on judical workloads or ON THE DISTRIBUTION OF POWER AMONG THE DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, if all the rights he wants to see recognized were recognized"
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 03:25 am
chiczaira wrote:
I do indeed agree that Children and adults are not similarly situated in society. I would never hold any other position. I am, however, having difficulty understanding why a 17 and a half year old murderer is to be exempt from the gas chamber( for the record, I am against the death penalty for all) because his moral sense is not yet formed, while a fourteen year old girl has enough moral sense to choose an abortion without any kind of counseling.

I am well aware that the Constitution establishes limited government. The Federalists were most adamant about that point. However, it can not be denied that the amendments to the constitution( which are part of the constitution, are they not) have added many "rights".

I am sure that your Constitutional Law classes made it clear that the addition of rights mean an addition of responsiblities. The USSC and the people, through their elected representatives, will determine whether they want to take on the burden of extra responsiblities and whether the new "right" is really a compelling one which the state must grant.
Richard A. Posner( I am sure you are familiar with this great jurist) has written--"Liberal Constitutional Theorists want the Supreme Court to recognized a number of new constitutional rights...A responsible defense of a program for increasing the number of
constitutional rights would require the proponent to consider the aggregrate impact, whether on judical workloads or ON THE DISTRIBUTION OF POWER AMONG THE DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, if all the rights he wants to see recognized were recognized"


The phrase "constitutional rights" is a fiction in the sense that the constitution does not grant us rights. Our rights exist by virtue of being born.

Quote:
The Constitution of the United States of America

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Please define the "blessings of liberty." Please define "freedom." How about "oppression" and "tyranny."

Aren't we all blessed with liberty by virtue of our birth? The constitution does not grant us the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.


Quote:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech.

Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of the press.

Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people peaceably to assemble.

Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The freedoms of religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition belong to us by virtue of our birth. These rights are not "constitutional rights" granted to us by the constitution; they were already ours. The first amendment is a limitation on government. The government may not infringe upon our liberties and freedoms.


Quote:
Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed! Again, the constitution did not create a right. The people already had the right to bear arms. This is a limitation on government.

Quote:
Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Another limitation on government.


Quote:
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


The government shall not violate our rights! Our rights already existed.

Quote:
Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


More limitations on government as a means to secure the rights that were already ours.

Quote:
Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


More limitations on government.

Quote:
Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Just because certain rights are mentioned in the previous amendments wherein the government is mandated NOT to infringe or violate those rights, that doesn't mean those are the only rights that exist. The Constitution shall not be construed to deny or disparage all other rights RETAINED by the people. We did not surrender our rights to the government when we formed the United States of America.


Quote:
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


Many governmental powers were delegated to the federal government such as the power to coin money and regulate interstate commerce. Other governmental powers that were not delegated to the federal government nor prohibited by it to the states, such as establishing public schools and colleges, are reserved to the states.


Your argument that we have no rights unless they are "enumerated" in the constitution is simply without merit. The constitution is not an enumeration of limited rights that the people retained when they formed the government; the constitution is a document that says what the government may do (e.g., coin money, regulate commerce) and what the government shall not do (infringe or violate the people's rights).
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 03:52 am
Debra_Law

The phrase "constitutional rights" is a fiction in the sense that the constitution does not grant us rights. Our rights exist by virtue of being born.


Sez who?
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 05:31 am
Uh, Bush has said that himself. According to him the rights were given by God to all mankind and therefore must be secured for everyone around the world and we are the ones to see to it that it gets done. (Or something like that.)
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 05:52 am
And far be it from me to argue with the bushii Shocked
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 05:56 am
goodfielder wrote:
The phrase "constitutional rights" is a fiction in the sense that the constitution does not grant us rights. Our rights exist by virtue of being born.[/i]

Sez who?

The founding fathers, when they wrote the declaration of independence.

Quote:
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

I think they're making it crystal clear here that rights are not granted by government; "all men" are "endowed by their Creator" with them. Governments are instrumental to those rights, and can be 'altered or abolished' if they become destructive of them. In other words, the rights come first, and take precedence over government power.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 06:53 am
debra law
Quote:
The phrase "constitutional rights" is a fiction in the sense that the constitution does not grant us rights. Our rights exist by virtue of being born.


thomas
Quote:
I think they're making it crystal clear here that rights are not granted by government; "all men" are "endowed by their Creator" with them. Governments are instrumental to those rights, and can be 'altered or abolished' if they become destructive of them. In other words, the rights come first, and take precedence over government power.


Yes. It is, surely, one hell of a leap to claim that these rights accrue simply as a consequence of conscious existence, as if such lay quite outside of human political affairs and are grounded in the sphere of the benevolent super-natural. But that is the working assumption. (I think it is just about the only case where I find such a questionable premise - another fiction, to use deb's word - to be a good idea).
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 07:00 am
Disagree Thomas. The framers of the Constitution defined those rights with reference to other sources. Claiming the Creator as the definer of those rights is a bit rich too. I always thought the language was a bit overblown.

I'm not arguing with the definition, it's not bad. The truth is we're not born with any rights at all. We assume them.

Note: "the truth is" is used colloquially, I'm not making a claim other than to simply say "we have no rights just by being human". I'm informed by blatham's comments.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 07:13 am
So,if a teenager commits a murder at 6:59:58,and they were born at 7:00:00,then since the murder was committed 2 seconds before their 18th birthday they avoid the death penalty?

I know that sounds ridiculous,but anyone wanna bet that some lawyer somewhere will parse it like that,before to long.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 07:24 am
mysteryman wrote:
So,if a teenager commits a murder at 6:59:58,and they were born at 7:00:00,then since the murder was committed 2 seconds before their 18th birthday they avoid the death penalty?

I know that sounds ridiculous,but anyone wanna bet that some lawyer somewhere will parse it like that,before to long.


Sounds a fair summary of the law to me.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 07:47 am
goodfielder wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
So,if a teenager commits a murder at 6:59:58,and they were born at 7:00:00,then since the murder was committed 2 seconds before their 18th birthday they avoid the death penalty?

I know that sounds ridiculous,but anyone wanna bet that some lawyer somewhere will parse it like that,before to long.


Sounds a fair summary of the law to me.


i would call it "erring on the side of life"
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 02/08/2025 at 02:58:58