How (and when) will the Government Shutdown end?

It depends on the situation.

I think there are merits to the idea of negotiating (and paying ransom) to free hostages while still pursuing the terrorists via the military and law enforcement.

Note that in your metaphor here, the Democrats are just as deserving of being considered the terrorists as Trump is.

The strategy that you advocate just lost you a permanent fix for DACA.

If a permanent fix for DACA were on offer... that would change the calculus. I actually think the Democrats would accept that if it were on offer. And, I would strongly support trading $5.7 billion for the wall in exchange for a real permanent fix for DACA. The key word, of course, is "permanent"... this would mean the full Dream Act (rather than the nearly meaningless "Bridge Act" which he offered).

The chance that Trump is going to offer any real permanent fix for DACA is about zero. I don't think Trump has the political strength to pull this off even if he wanted to (he would be opposed by Fox News, and that would end it).

A fix for DACA will be something for the 2020 elections.

How do you know the chances are zero if you don't try to negotiate?

I'm not saying that the Democrats should have caved and accepted a bad DACA fix.

I'm saying the Democrats should have been more vigorous about pursuing a good DACA fix.

And maybe they did try behind closed doors. But all this cheering for "no compromise" just strikes me as a tragic lost opportunity.

As I recall, back when moderate Republican senators were going to try to compromise and pass a permanent DACA fix, and Barack Obama completely undercut them with his executive order, we had a conversation that was quite similar to this. You were cheering for Obama, and I was pointing out that Obama had just prevented a permanent legislative fix.

Either of us not posting may be viewed as a positive.

I don't view it as a positive.

We talked the other day I thought how Trump agreed to the DACA fix, shook on it, then got scared by Ann Coulter and Sean’s Hannity and reneged on the deal. That was for a full 25billion.

Trump is an untrustworthy partner. He needed to come out with the big public statement and even if he did, I don’t know that I’d trust him as far as a Fox News opinion desk.

I started this thread to talk about the politics now.

Trump is losing the fight he started. I don't think there was ever a possibility of getting the Dream Act out of this. If there were then I would agree with you that the Democrats should use their political leverage to accomplish exactly that.

Smart politicians don't start fights they can't win.

I have already told you how this will end. And I am correct.

It was certainly worth trying.

They can't because they are ultimately not in favor of what it would take globally to provide everyone with the liberty to migrate free of exploitation.

Socialism is a national(ist) phenomenon that causes economic players in the global economy to vye for a better position for their citizens over others they trade with.

European nations mostly trade to gain the ability to satisfy demanding unions and pension funds, and struggle to keep non-citizens from immigrating and gaining access to citizen entitlements/benefits.

In a global context where nations do business with other nations competitively, it creates an incentive to migrate for money. Drug- and human- trafficking are really just the most blatant forms of exploitation. It's also exploitative to sustain a heavily automotive-dependent consumer culture in the US so investors can cash in on the intense borrowing and spending that comes with that, as well as the export sales by shipping cars, parts, and oil to the US.

If all this nations-exploiting-nations competition ended, e.g. because local economic self-sufficiency increased globally, then there would be less social-economic pressure to migrate for exploitative business interests and so people could be freer to migrate for other reasons, such as cultural curiosity.

The Democrats are not willing to pursue such a world, however, because they oppose the traditional effort to "make the world safe for democracy and freedom." At the same time, many Republicans want the world to be safe for democracy and freedom, but they don't acknowledge many of the problems that happen when private business interests operate within the paradigm of freedom and democracy.

So how can you pretend to guarantee dreamers or anyone else anything as long as their are exploitative global interests seeking to use any opening to vye for a stronger economic position for their nation/people at the expense of other nations? There should not have to be a wall, but at the same time even a wall won't be enough to stop certain hell-bent people/interests from abuse and exploitation.

I've noticed that Trump has completely stopped talking about an emergency declaration. I think that might have upset his allies to the point where he felt he needed to drop it. Either that or he was trying it out as a negotiating threat and when it fell flat, he set it aside.

Nothing has fallen flat. Trump has the power to declare an emergency anytime he wishes. A president can do that.

Everyone know, including Trump, that declaring a national emergency is a political defeat for him. It will be challenged in court and be hugely unpopular, and there will be no wall.

He is about to do it anyway, because he has no other choice.

They are grounding flights now as the air traffic control system starts to collapse...

42% want the wall. How is that hugely unpopular? This should be good

Declaring a national emergency will be hugely unpopular.

Not when 42% want the wall. You lose. It will be unpopular with the MSM, that means nothing, no one trusts them anymore.

It strikes me that building a wall via a national emergency declaration results in a wall.

I realize that the courts might block it. But they also might not. It'll probably ultimately be decided by the Supreme Court, so it'll be awhile before we know.

But whatever. Someone post an update now and then on whether an emergency is or is not declared.

I don't quite care enough to look it up myself, but I'll scan this thread when I see that it has new posts.

BREAKING NEWS:
Trump Likely to Announce Deal to End Government Shutdown for Three Weeks

Watch Live: Trump Addresses Shutdown From White House Rose Garden
So far... just an empty podium.