How (and when) will the Government Shutdown end?

@engineer,

Quote:

I think McConnell has been neutered and will have no impact at all on the shutdown. He will only bring forward whatever Trump agrees to and content himself with approving Trump judges. To some extent, same for Schumer, so it is Pelosi and Trump who are going to decide this. (Just an aside, but it was completely shameful for Ryan to walk away from Washington and wash his hands of this mess as House Speaker.) I think it will go on for a while then Pelosi will extract some concessions in other areas in return for 2-3 billion for border security. Trump will say it is for the wall, Pelosi will say it is for border security, we'll probably see a fix for DACA, maybe some other immigration related wins for Democrats.

I am hoping you are right, to me it would be the best outcome out of all this. I just wish Pelosi would get on with it sooner.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

thack45 wrote:

Concerns over employees of the government that we hate to love to hate not being paid, and people filling national parks with doodies, has only gone so far. But reports are out now that an extended shutdown could delay tax refunds, so an actual sense of urgency might finally materialize

What refund? Isn't the ACA individual mandate penalty still in place for this year's tax payments? Many people would probably rather keep the government shut down to avoid taxes than to try to get a refund that's non-existent.

Your ability to NOT understand anything tax or fiscal policy is ... pretty outstanding (that's not a good thing for someone who rants a lot about politics).

The ACA individual mandate penalty was made moot even after it was created. Does anybody know anybody hit by this? I've never had the privilege to get affordable health care through the company I work for (and yet make too much too much for Medicaid). I do my taxes every year (and like many others are actually exempt).

ACA Individual Mandate Penalty Reduced to $0 in 2019

And I know many people (me not withstanding) who get a tax refund every year since ACA was put into place. Those two things are literally separate from each other... AKA are not mutually exclusive.

1 Reply

@tsarstepan,

tsarstepan wrote:

The ACA individual mandate penalty was made moot even after it was created. Does anybody know anybody hit by this? I've never had the privilege to get affordable health care through the company I work for (and yet make too much too much for Medicaid). I do my taxes every year (and like many others are actually exempt).

ACA Individual Mandate Penalty Reduced to $0 in 2019

And I know many people (me not withstanding) who get a tax refund every year since ACA was put into place. Those two things are literally separate from each other... AKA are not mutually exclusive.

I hope you're right and the penalty has been reduced to $0. I thought it was but I read recently that it's not being totally phased out until next year. Fake news, maybe.

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@revelette1,

Quote:

I am hoping you are right, to me it would be the best outcome out of all this. I just wish Pelosi would get on with it sooner.

I don't think Pelosi is the problem. Personally I think the wall is a travesty, a costly symbol that accomplishes very little.

Paying $2 billion for movement on DACA might be a compromise... but it feels like an awfully big bribe.

Anyway, I don't think Trump is going to go along with this deal. And I think Pelosi should stand firm anyway.

There should be a vote on the wall without holding the government hostage. The truth is that without the being clubbed over the head with this shutdown, the American public doesn't support the wall.

What happened to democracy?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

There should be a vote on the wall without holding the government hostage. The truth is that without the being clubbed over the head with this shutdown, the American public doesn't support the wall.

What happened to democracy?

They could pass the wall in order to reopen the government, then defund the wall later. It would be dishonest but if that dishonesty doesn't cost them re-election, would they care? They are politicians and lawyers, after all.

As far as the public not supporting the wall, they did elect Trump on the wall promise. The Democrats have not wanted to do anything but obstruct and attack Trump since his election. They have no respect for the people that elected him. As far as they're concerned, democracy is just a method to take over government and exclude those people's opinions from policy. That's not actually democracy, but they will argue that as long as they use democratic methods to attack and exclude participation, then such exclusion is democratic and not repressive.

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@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

As far as the public not supporting the wall, they did elect Trump on the wall promise.

They elected Trump on the promise of a Mexican Funded Wall ... why do you leave that important part out? And by "they" I mean 19% of American citizens. A full 81% of citizens didn't vote for Trump, and they are allowed to have an opinion on the wall as well.

An American funded wall and a Mexican funded wall are two very different propositions.

I'd love to have a free meal at a 3 Michelin star restaurant, but no way would I pay for that myself.

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@livinglava,

Just to be cleat here...

You are saying that any president who is unable to get through his pet project through the normal democratic process should refuse to allow Congress to find the government.

And when the government shuts down, Congress should give into the president?

This doesn't sound like a good thing (whether or not the president is named Trump).

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

There should be a vote on the wall without holding the government hostage. The truth is that without the being clubbed over the head with this shutdown, the American public doesn't support the wall.

What happened to democracy?

Unfortunately, democracy voted in Trump (barely through the electoral college but it the way our democracy is set up), he is not a good president to put it simply. You can't deal with him rationally, but, if you give him an out where he can spin it his way, and at least immigrants and dreamers get something out of it, I think Pelosi should shut her eyes and go for it. Trump has to have something he can show his base such as Limbaugh and the other loud mouthed 'conservative' pundits that he stuck to his campaign promises even though he didn't. He promised Mexico would pay for his stupid wall. He was all set to sign a stop gab measure until he watched 'conservative' news and then he backed away with arms all folded and his fat lips pooched out like a baby and said, "we will get a wall or a shut down." (or something like that.) That is who democracy decided to deal with so we got to deal with it, wishing it otherwise does no good at all.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You are saying that any president who is unable to get through his pet project through the normal democratic process should refuse to allow Congress to find the government.

It's as good a reason as any to have a furlough. Shutdowns are good for getting people to practice austerity. Austerity is a good skill to have, despite how much people poohpooh it.

Quote:

And when the government shuts down, Congress should give into the president?

Not necessarily. If they are good at austerity, they could hold out until their demands are met.

Another solution is to have a dialogue where both sides come to appreciate each others' POVs and start working together constructively in good conscience. I don't have much confidence in the possibility of that at this point in politics, though. There's been too much abandonment/rejection of traditional values. The socialists are, at this point, trying to create a whole new culture of values and expecting traditional religious people to defer to their radical secularism. I don't know how they can expect to have consensus government like that, but I'm not so sure they care about consensus anyway, outside of sexual consent anyway, which seems extremely important as a political issue to them.

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@revelette1,

1. The Congress has a Constitutional duty to act as a check on the president. If Congress gives in to this type of presidential bullying it is abdicating its responsibility. This also means that a bad president has significantly more power than a good president.

2. Ironically if this tactic worked the Dream Act would have passed a few shutdowns ago and the DACA recipients would now allnhave green cards.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

You act as though Trump will eventually give in when he won't, he can't and keep his main base on board with him.

Most government workers live from paycheck to paycheck, they are suffering and they deserve the money that are contacted to have for the work they do. You think Trump is going to give a fig about them? The longer this plays out, the government workers are doing without a paycheck and it is not fair to them nor is it fair to us as citizens to have our government shut down. Someone is going to have to give and it has to be democrats if they can get a lot in return. Someone has to be the responsible one and the grown-up for the country.

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@revelette1,

I think the weak point is the Republicans in the Senate. They should take responsibility for their party's president. Pelosi has the moral high ground, she should hold firm and let the pressure grow on the Republicans.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

Pelosi has the moral high ground,

A wall is immoral, give me a break.

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@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

Most government workers live from paycheck to paycheck, they are suffering and they deserve the money that are contacted to have for the work they do.

Why can't they learn to spend less of their pay and have savings to fall back on during periods where they don't get paid?

Quote:

You think Trump is going to give a fig about them?

A furlough is actually good for people as it gives them an opportunity to develop important money-saving skills. There are always going to be times in life when you have to make do with less spending for whatever reason, so it is good for people to learn that lesson and practice restricting their spending.

If they would do this regularly when there were getting paid, they would have plenty of savings now so as not to have to worry about going a while without getting paid.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I hope events prove me wrong and you right, I guess we'll see. I just hope people are not saying, "give it until March..." in the democrat congress. Often times, "shoulds" do not reality make.

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Quote:

Blood Of Officer Ronil Singh Is On Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer Hands

High moral ground, my ass.

http://www.floppingaces.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Singh4-2.jpg

http://www.floppingaces.net/2019/01/03/blood-of-officer-ronil-singh-is-on-nancy-pelosi-and-chuck-schumer-hands/

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@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

A furlough is actually good for people as it gives them an opportunity to develop important money-saving skills.

Ain't poverty wonderful? For other people, I mean.

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@roger,

roger wrote:

livinglava wrote:

A furlough is actually good for people as it gives them an opportunity to develop important money-saving skills.

Ain't poverty wonderful? For other people, I mean.

Poverty is making plenty of money and still lacking savings, being in debt, or both . . .

. . . because you overspend, the prices/rent you pay are too high, or both.

In short, overspending causes inflation and inflation causes overspending and poverty.

To make it even simpler, liberalism causes poverty.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

And when the government shuts down, Congress should give into the president?

How long has his can been kicked down the road? Trump was elected on this promise and intends to keep it. The ball in the the Congress. It should be easy to see what politicians are n the pockets of special interests that want more illegals not less.

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@roger,

Quote:

Ain't poverty wonderful?

Any government employee that is considered poverty level is news to me. And any employee furloughed that ends up there is a fool.

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How (and when) will the Government Shutdown end?

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