How (and when) will the Government Shutdown end?

@revelette1,

Unless the TSA organizes rotating sick outs around the major US airline hubs. Atlanta for a couple of days, then Chicago, then Dallas, then LAX. Our system is so tightly interwoven these days that just targeting a hub would reverberate across the country.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

That isnt how democracy works

you actually believe that eh?

It happens at all levels, thats really what strikes were all about, A "hostage" was taken, just so the aggrieved could make their points. I see no diff here. (except that it is harming the entire economy)

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@engineer,

Quote:

Unless the TSA organizes rotating sick outs around the major US airline hubs. Atlanta for a couple of days, then Chicago, then Dallas, then LAX. Our system is so tightly interwoven these days that just targeting a hub would reverberate across the country.

It is not only TSA affected by the shutdown, also when it comes to putting food on the table, or a house to put your food on the table, organizing who has to work for free don't mean much if neither gets a paycheck.

What Is and Isn’t Affected by the Government Shutdown

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@farmerman,

You are wrong for three reasons.

1. Let's talk moral principle. You don't give into hostage takers. The Congress (and the Democrats in particular) can not give in to hostage taking. Revelette is suggesting that if a president is "irrational" then we must give him what he wants. This rewards presidents being irrational.

2. Now let's talk politics. The Democrats have the winning hand. The not only have the moral responsibility to stand up to the president (who we seem to agree is irrational), they have the power. This is a zero sum game (if one side loses the other wins) meaning that one side will win this fight. They can't both lose... either the Democrats or the Republicans will win in 2020).

3. The pressure is building on the Republicans. Yes, there is also pressure on the Democrats... but as long as their is more pressure on the Republicans the Democrats are in winning position.

4. The Democrats have the natural logical advantage. The Republicans want to use the Federal workers to get a deal. The Democrats are saying... end the shutdown and then we can work out a deal.

This is why public support will stay with the Democrats.

Even Revelette, who is arguing that the Democrats should cave, is using a the Democratic frame. She understands that Trump is being "irrational" and that the Federal workers are being used as hostages by the Republicans. As long as this is the frame, the Democrats are on the high ground.

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@revelette1,

As Airports shut down (or something similar happens)... the pressure builds on the Republicans in the Senate. That is where this stalemate cracks.

The obvious answer will be to just end the shutdown with no conditions attached. The Democrats will just keep saying "end the shutdown now, then we can work negotiate any trade without using the Federal workers as bargaining chips". There may be a face-saving "deal" cobbled together. It won't be anything like Trumps ridiculous offer.

The Democrats will not capitulate. They have no real reason to, and in reality they shouldn't. If Trump shuts down the government for a month and then gets what he wants... what does he do next?

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The Democrats are also, smartly, passing bill after bill after bill to REOPEN the government.

They're alone in that.

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@maxdancona,

Who cares whose on the high ground? We are talking about people and the way they make their living here.

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@maporsche,

Quote:

They're alone in that.

Exactly

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@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

Who cares whose on the high ground? We are talking about people and the way they make their living here.

True, but the Congress cannot allow the President to extort the country by taking employees hostage. There is value in reasserting the role of Congress to control the pocketbook.

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@engineer,

The President cannot allow Congress to extort the country by taking employees hostage.

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@engineer,

I feel that, because of the same discussions that are going on here, that we should write congressmen on both sides of the aisles and let em know that we know when they run for office(DEMS and GOPs are now equally vulnerable in this trqgedy). Buncha childish douche bags.

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@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

I think I agree. Pelosi is just being stubborn in this case and I think it is going to go bad for democrats if she does not agree with the deal. I don't like the three year time limit either, but, I think it is clear most Americans want Dreamers to stay and in three years, or even less, I imagine that will be fixed. I think Pelosi should compromise and go for the deal and seven democrats in the Senate should go for the deal as well. The whole thing is silly and didn't need to happen and it is all Trump's fault for holding the Federal workers hostage for a wall nobody except a few far right wingers wanted, but, we need to end this and at least immigrants gets something out of it.

Well, I agree that the Democrats should not stubbornly refuse to make any deal at all no matter what.

But the Democrats don't have to take Trump's deal as-is. They can say why Trump's offer isn't quite good enough, and counter with a proposal of their own.

This is (hopefully) a negotiation. The Democrats should negotiate too.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The Democrats are asking a very simple question...
If we are going to trade DACA for border wall money, why don't we just open the government and then work out a fair deal?
Why does the government need to be shut down while they negotiate?

Because if the Democrats refuse to work out a deal under the pressure of a government shut down, they certainly won't be willing to work out a deal when they are under no pressure at all.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

1. Let's talk moral principle. You don't give into hostage takers. The Congress (and the Democrats in particular) can not give in to hostage taking.

The Democrats are just as much hostage takers as the President is here.

maxdancona wrote:

2. Now let's talk politics. The Democrats have the winning hand. The not only have the moral responsibility to stand up to the president (who we seem to agree is irrational), they have the power.

I don't know who has the winning hand, but you are wrong on the other two. The Democrats do not have a moral responsibility to block Trump's proposals no matter what. If that is what they are doing, they are doing it solely out of childish spite.

And the Democrats do not have "the power". They do have some power, yes. But the President also has some power.

maxdancona wrote:

3. The pressure is building on the Republicans. Yes, there is also pressure on the Democrats... but as long as their is more pressure on the Republicans the Democrats are in winning position.

We'll see.

maxdancona wrote:

4. The Democrats have the natural logical advantage. The Republicans want to use the Federal workers to get a deal. The Democrats are saying... end the shutdown and then we can work out a deal.

But will anybody be gullible enough to fall for that line?

Trump should give up all of his leverage and then come back and negotiate when he has nothing left to bargain with? It would be pretty unreasonable for anyone to expect him to do that.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

As Airports shut down (or something similar happens)... the pressure builds on the Republicans in the Senate. That is where this stalemate cracks.

I don't see the Senate facing much pressure.

But even if the Senate passed every bill that the Democrats want them to pass, it would hardly matter. Trump would just veto the bills.

maxdancona wrote:

The Democrats will not capitulate. They have no real reason to, and in reality they shouldn't.

Actually they do have a reason to. And they should.

Making a deal with Trump over the wall is the best way (perhaps the only way) to get a permanent fix for DACA.

You say that you really want a permanent fix for DACA. You are cheering for a course of action that will prevent that from happening.

maxdancona wrote:

If Trump shuts down the government for a month and then gets what he wants... what does he do next?

Who knows. But if the Democrats learn how to negotiate with him now, then they'll know how to do it the next time there is a conflict.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Because if the Democrats refuse to work out a deal under the pressure of a government shut down, they certainly won't be willing to work out a deal when they are under no pressure at all.

So you agree, Trump is the one holding Federal employees as hostages for his border wall. The Democrats want the government to open before making any deals. I think it is Trump who won't make any deals which include Dreamers and other immigrant issues without the public pressure he rightfully has underneath him right now. If the pressure of the Federal workers is off of him, he has no reason to agree to any budget deal, then we will be right back where we started.

I think after this, either way, there needs to be a law which addresses the problem of government workers not getting paid. Turn the services off, but pay the workers who lose their paychecks through no fault of their own. I imagine that would end any shutdown right quick.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
1. Let's talk moral principle. You don't give into hostage takers. The Congress (and the Democrats in particular) can not give in to hostage taking.
The Democrats are just as much hostage takers as the President is here.

That's just not true oralloy.

The Democrats are looking to pass the same budget/CR that Republicans last passed sometime in 2018.

The president is asking for more. The change in budget request is due to him. HE has changed the rules. He is the hostage taker to get what HE wants.

HE need to go to Congress and get approval from the representatives of the people. Not some blank check funding on a plan that can't even be convincingly called a plan.

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@engineer,

OK, say I agree. What to do about Trump and government shutdown? Do you think the president is going to say, "OK, Pelosi, you win, we will open the government and then negotiate the wall" no matter how low his approval numbers go or how bad and long the government remains shutdown?

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@revelette1,

I think Trump will declare a state of emergency. Open the government. Someone will sue Trump. They'll win in court. No wall will be built. Trump will say "I tried" but couldn't get it done. His people will eat that **** up and blame the democrats (like they would no matter what).

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

I feel that, because of the same discussions that are going on here, that we should write congressmen on both sides of the aisles and let em know that we know when they run for office(DEMS and GOPs are now equally vulnerable in this trqgedy). Buncha childish douche bags.

I started this thread to talk political strategy. But let me talk now as an American voter.

Democrats and GOPs are not equally vulnerable. The Republicans are much more vulnerable than the Democrats as they should be. The Democrats want to open the government without anyone gaining anything, the Republicans want to extract something for it.

As a constituent I want my representatives to stand firm against Trump. And, I want them to open the government without playing any more games. No one gains anything. If the Democrats capitulate based on a government shutdown, I will be furious. There is no upside for most Democrats on giving in, especially when Trump will be pinned for this and the Republicans will look like Trump toadies.

The Democratic line is simple... Open the government, then we will see if we can work out a deal on the wall and DACA. Holding firm to this line is not only the best political strategy it is also the moral thing.

The idea that government shutdowns should be used to gain one of the president's unpopular political goals is not responsible governing.

1 Reply

How (and when) will the Government Shutdown end?

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