Separation Anxiety

The paternal grandparents....

<sigh>

I had a whole thread about them when they resurfaced. They are sort of okay.

I think the daycare was okay. I'm not a huge fan of daycare so I try to put my personal feelings aside. The daycare has since closed.

Grandmother has also suffered some serious health problems.

And drug use problems.

But I think the daycare was okay. Mo did become very sick and require a week's hospitalization from some reperatorty virus he picked up there when he was five weeks old. But.....

I don't really know much about the facility or its staff.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of daycare.

When I would pick up Mo during the first two years of his life he would cling to me. He would cry when his parents came to pick him up. I assumed this was because I provided him with undivided and very enthusiastic attention. (And maybe that is all it was.)

I didn't just try to help him - I tried to help all of them. I had a phone hooked up in their house. I would take over groceries. I fronted many of their bills to avoid having services cut off. I tried to ease the stress, I guess that is the best way to frame it. (This was after I caught their roomates dealing pot and delivered an ultimatum of ditching the roomates or calling the cops. With the roomates gone, finances were tough.)

Okay, anyway, I think he relied on me for comfort - not just with stuff but emotionally as well. His bio-parents were at one point very jealous of the way he realated to me.

Explainations.

I really wish I had better answers to these kind of questions.

Honestly, Mo has never really wondered why he's here. At least not in any way he can express. He likes it here, he has since the day he was born.

I have never ever tried to insinuate that his parents and his extended family does not love him. He has never really questioned his lovability.
He still doesn't. I hope he never does.

When his grandparents resurfaced I really relied on Mo's extraordinary memory. I knew he remembered them despite having not seen them in a year because he would comment on them anytime we drove near their house.

The day before they came over (I always wait for confirmation to avoid disappointment) I said something like "Guess who called and wants to come see you? Do you remember Grandma X and Grandpa Y - the ones with the yellow dog?" and Mo said "The ones with the dartboard?" and I said "Yes." and he said "Oh great."

And they came and we all had a good time.

Maybe appearing and disappearing people are not a big deal to Mo. My mom comes to visit every other year and he loves to see her and doesn't think anything of it when she leaves. We went there last year so he could meet all of my other family and he talks about them all the time still. Mr. B's mom and dad call and chat with him on the phone all of the time. He hasn't met them yet but he talks to them like he would anybody else that he knows.

Yes, boundries and tail-spinning are the tight rope I walk every day!

Kind words are balm, shewolf. Never discount their worth.

Oh I cry sometimes but really its not a tragedy. When you start talking facts - like in legal or psychological it seems overwhelming but really on a day to day basis, short of my occasional freak out, it is not as bad as it sounds.

I'm an information junkie and believe in being prepared. I pick everybody's mind on A2K because it is such a great resource - and one that doesn't cost $480.00 per hour like my attorney or whatever in the world I might end up paying for a counseler (C'mon insurance!).

I'm a lucky girl.

Very interesting, Boomer - sounds good.

I do hope he is with you when he is 5/6 and the need for explanations comes up.

The clinging etc sounds a hell of a lot like attachment - the trauma will come from you having had to let him go back to other folk - and I think that one is gonna come up big time sooner or later. And you will have the answers to his wonderings.

Sounds like the comings and goings are not, yet, a cognitive issue for him. And thank god you have always been there.

Did you know that - for kids with incomptetent parents - good daycare - (and schools) - are a major protective factor?

When did the seeking reassurance questions start?

Have I mentioned that you are that best of all things for this kid? An intelligent, rational, loving person who finds ambivalences and complexities difficult, but not overwhelming?

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))

This kid, having drawn **** numbers in the lottery of existence, has had a miraculous stroke of luck in his neighbours.

Bless you!

"Maybe appearing and disappearing people are not a big deal to Mo. My mom comes to visit every other year and he loves to see her and doesn't think anything of it when she leaves. We went there last year so he could meet all of my other family and he talks about them all the time still. Mr. B's mom and dad call and chat with him on the phone all of the time. He hasn't met them yet but he talks to them like he would anybody else that he knows."


Ah - great! And it doesn't sound like he attached to paternal g/p's - so they are like your parents to him. Great.

Its that "big time sooner or later" that I really try to prepare myself for.

Skills, skills.

I have kept a "contact journal" since about a week after Mo moved in at the suggestion of an attorney friend (not family law even).

Between the contact journal and the "please help me learn to be a parent" emails to Noddy I could probably pinpoint just about every major development/problem we've faced.

The reassurance thing....

It really probably started around his third birthday when he became insistant on calling us "mom and dad" instead of our usual names of "abuela and pa".

He seemed to be picking up cues from playmates that "mom and dad" were the grown up that you lived with. We really wrestled with whether this was a good idea or not. The more we tried to persuade him into "abuela and pa" the more insistent he became that we were "mom and dad".

It really seemed to be causing him some stress so we just let it go. (He now calls his bio mom - other mom. We don't know what he might now call his bio dad since we haven't seen him much.)

It was around the last holidays, around Thanksgiving, I guess, in November that the "I want to stay with you" thing started in earnest. His family was showing up more and more.

Now, "I want to stay with you" is something we hear over and over each day.

Our response is always "I want to stay with you".

And thanks for the hugs and the nice words.

Coming from someone who has seen it all and then some, it really means a lot.

I found some really good information today by visiting adoption web sites and forums - especially those devoted to adopting older children and foster kids.

Its a hard knock to realize that perhaps your kid isn't behaving "normally" but a relief to know that maybe something is wrong and there is help out there.

I've realized too how spoiled I am by A2K and the quick responses and large membership of extraordinary people.

Thanks all!

BM

(Very interesting & informative thread!)

Boomer - what are you reading about that you are seeing in Mo? Other than the disinhibition with strangers?

Things that are a little harder to talk about, dlowan.

Things that only I am the one to see.

Things like how he bullys me, how he will sometimes grab my throat and choke, or how he hits. Most of the time Mo is great but sometimes he is really mean to me.

Mr. B knows about these things but has continued to insist that I am just too lenient with punishment. I think I'm pretty consistent with discipline but it doesn't seem to have much of an effect.

We had a long, long talk about these things today.

Things I hadn't thought about like sneaking food.

Things like how he can be so calm and gentle with animals most of the time and then delight in harassing them others.

Things that might be typical and then again, maybe not so typical.

Things that given his history might be worthy of caution... or at least more concern that what a "typical" child might do.

Hmmmm.

The theme is, get a professional involved to either tell you you're doing the right thing -- and then you know you are -- or give you some pointers, or both.

Especially on the discipline thing. Consistency is where it's at. Severity isn't.

I dunno boomer, sozlet's done those things.

When I was talking about how this thing -- which is a thing -- hovers and influences, that's what I mean, the uncertainty of knowing whether it's a sign or just a four-year-old being a four-year-old.

"Things that might be typical and then again, maybe not so typical" is it in a nutshell. I'll do some insurance voodoo for you.

Any bedwetting? Any fascination with fire, playing with matches?

You've said that he's usually a truthful child. A tactful word for wooing strangers is "winsome". I had two toddlers like that. Out of the cradle, into the con.

Would you say his hitting and choking behavior is rough housing or does it have momentary malice behind it?

Sneaking food? Regularly or once and awhile? Sneaking any sort of food or just his favorites? Eating the food or stockpiling it so it rots?

I'm not an expert, but I'd guess Little Mo is on the in the "normal" range, slightly to the "complicated" side.

Arrr - yes - not so uncommon with these little folk - but yes, cause for concern.

I think some skilled support with him would be good.

If only because the absolutely key thing with all that is to be rock solid and secure yourself in dealing with them - and they can be a little scary. They can also affect the relationship with him - though not, it seems, for you. It is so important that you be neither scared nor scary with him (I know you wouldn't be!) - "bigger, wiser, kinder, stronger." Have you looked up the Circle of Security stuff? Have a look - they run lovely programs.

Boomer - if he gets to feel more secure with you, some of these behaviours may worsen with you - especially the anger directed at you. I do wonder if he has experienced, or witnessed, violence.

If you feel comfortable, might you like to discuss how you deal with these behaviours - of course, you may well want to discuss these with a counsellor

I will check to see if a fabulous article dealing with this stuff is available online - but I can't until after Monday.

Soz, I do think it is all about finding that line between what is normal and what is not. Half he time my gut reaction is "normal" and at others its "what the hell?".

Since potty training has been completed we haven't really had a problem with bed wetting - only once ina while. Today we had a fairly major incident though and when I put him in "time out" he peed in his pants -- something he hasn't done in a long long time.

There does seem to be malice behind it sometimes - like the incident today. He was being all sweet and "look at this". When I bent down to look at this - wham - he hit me with it, ripped off my glasses (a big No thing) and threw them across the room. Without a word, I picked him up and took him to his corner where we do time out. That's when he peed in his pants.

Mostly he sneaks his favorite foods. He asks if he can have something and if I say no he waits until I'm distracted and just goes and gets it. He either eats it or gives it to the dogs.

His truthfulness comes into play here - he will often approach me with food hidden behind his back. When I ask what he's hiding he'll show me then run for the hills to gobble it down or to give it to our adoring dogs.

I haven't found any stockpiles yet.....

Gosh, no, he is not scared of me at all. There have been a few times where he has really pushed me and he knows I'm seriously mad but even then I don't think he's scared.

I know without doubt that he has seen violence between his parents. Maybe not fistfights or that kind of thing but most definately spitting at each other and physical intimidation. Physical restraint. Yelling and screaming. Yes, undoubtably.

Dealing with these behaviors is becoming more difficult. For a while the time out thing seemed to work but that seems to be falling apart. Now, he has two reactions to it: to be defiant in telling me "I didn't cry" or to completely disinigrate - screaming "Please don't leave me here" and pleading with me not to "go".

I'm of the mind that discipline means "to teach" and that repition and consistency work: hit/corner, hit/corner, hit/corner. I also belive that when the punishment is over, its over. Talk about it if we need to, or just go on with our day if we don't.

I usually wait until things are calm to talk about the behaviors that give rise to punishment. I'll find a calm time, like when we're pulling weeds in the yard and I'll talk about how we don't hit the people we care about and how we have to speak to each other respectfully, and so on. That kind of stuff.

He does know when he's crossed the line. When he has really hurt me or one of the pets. And it just knocks him over with sadness. I know he feels empathy and remorse.

But it doesn't seem enough to help him to control his future behavior.

Oh.

As to fire - he has no resources to create one and only seems fascinated when he is roasting a marshmallow when we go camping.

He is, however, fascinated with electricty. At least once a day I'm asked to tell the story of the stupid kid that played with the electricty and had to go to the hospital and how he couldn't play with any of his favorite toys or favorite people anymore.

Hmm. I dunno, I dunno.

What I wanted to say (and forgot until I saw your latest) is that I think dlowan has a super important point in terms of confidence -- just knowing you're doing the right thing is huge.

You know I'm also an information junkie, and try to prepare for things ahead of time, and a lot of it is because I have seen how that works (I'm sure you have too) -- if I enter a situation and just kind of hope for one reaction because I dunno how I'd handle anything else, of course something else is what I get.

If I prepare myself for all eventualities and go into a situation knowing that whatever happens, I'm prepared, things tend to go much more smoothly. Like, the ideal reaction is much more likely, not just that I'm able to handle the non-ideal reaction.

The other point I think is important -- and I've made this point to lots of other moms who have felt put upon -- is that if the anger is there, it's much much better that he feels comfortable expressing it with you than not. While it certainly doesn't feel that way when he's being awful (sozlet had a stretch around when we moved where she was just grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....) it's actually an expression of closeness and trust in some ways.

It really sounds like you are handling things just as you should. But it also sounds like you could use some support. <adding candle to insurance shrine>

Time out is not fabulous for anxiously attached kids - it tends to exacerbate their fear of losing you, and anxiety fuels further testing - I am glad you do it in the corner - not away somewhere.

Are there natural consequences you can use instead? (Lots of therapists unfamiliar with the problems of attachment disordered kids will recommend it ,BTW) Like - if he is having fun with you, and pulls your glasses off like that, then x does not happen? Even gently restraining him if he continues to attack you, until he calms. Holding is a huge drama topic, BTW, not because when done by loving caregivers to assist a child to calm it is nbad, but because some people in a facility for reactive attachment disorder kids used it as a therapy that was done every day - and some disciples killed a kid. Sigh. So - mention holding, and people may go nuts.

His "switching" is not untypical. Think of it this way - for an infant in a normal situation, the caregiver is able to understand, manage and contain both the infant's feelings - and their own. There is attunement.

When baby is happy, angry, scared etc, there is a loving person to reflect and manage their feelings - loving eyes in which to see themselves - their bad feelings are ok - they can gradually integrate bad and good feelings - they learn to contain and soothe their own feelings, and can count on someone when these are too much.

In a bad situation, the baby is overwhelmed time and time again. Perhaps their negative feelings make the carer angry, perhaps they make the carer go away - perhaps the carer does not come near them.

This is overwhelmingly stressful - and produces, we think, changes in the infant's neuro-physiology. They are easily made aroused (emotionally, not sexually) - they find it hard to self-soothe - they find it hard to reflect. They have not integrated their "bad" and "good" selves so that they feel ok with positive and negative feelings (not that any kid has at four - but mostly kids can transition through more easily when they have had good enough care.)

So - behaviour switches - they are kind of asking, am I ok, will my badness hurt you, make you go away? Can you contain these awful feelings for me, and hold me through dealing with them?

When he is especially close to you, this may activate his fear of losing you, or fear of his badness hurting you - so he becomes anxious and pfttt! Almost as though he will push you away so he is in control, and is not abandoned.

As Soz so wisely says, a lot of this is not unique to traumatized kids - but it is a matter of degree and intensity.

I am getting the sense that he may be feeling more secure - and beginning the real checking stuff -

Oh - re the again and again and again and again and again and again - again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again

That's it! Think of how often the distress/attunement/containing/soothing cycle happens in an infant's day, week, month, year - that is, in a kind of way, what you are hoping to repair - it takes a very long time - and whether it can be done completely is moot - BUT - when it comes to risk and protective factors for your little fella - he is way up there in terms of the kinds of things that help kids deal well with this.

Wish we had more foster mums like you here.....grumble...moan.....envy......

I learned the preparation thing the hard way when we started dealing with attorneys. I really think I know about as much about Oregon custody laws as many lawyers. All of that research helped when we finally found the right lawyer - I had outlined our "case" using pertinent law and that streamlined the whole adventure.

And that is a very good point about him expressing his anger. I'm going to do some thinking and watching on that one....

Thanks too for the insurance shrine. There was an interesting article in today's paper about how Oregon is one of the few states that do not have parity laws for mental health required of its insurers. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'll be broaching this topic at a time where it is on everyone's mind.

The behavior switching thing is interesting. It really makes you wonder about how much behavior is hard-wired very early in life and about the possiblilties of rewiring things.

I'm a patient person so I know I can deal with the again and again things - especially is there promises to be a good payoff for Mo.

I'm really wondering if something might have happened during that 10 minute visit with mom that might have set off this lastest round of security questions.

I did hear her say something to the effect of "look there is plenty of room for now" as she was buckling him in.

She was a little peeved (okay, a lot peeved) at me when she discovered that the free photo gravy train had left the station....

Perhaps she voiced some displeasure towards me that Mo took objection to.

Just a theory. I've been trying to figure out the reason for the shortness of her visit and Mo's "Mommy I'm home, I'm home!" reaction to it. Then all the questions he's been asking since then.