27
   

The Statue Wars Begin

 
 
roger
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 12:48 am
@cameronleon,

cameronleon wrote:

I guess that the killing of hundreds of thousands of people in WW2 was indeed planned, but from my point of view, the planning was not for extermination purposes but that it was a necessary action in order to destroy the great war machine of Hitler..


Got it! The deaths of WWII were caused by allies trying to destroy a great war machine..


Quote:

Can you imagine if all the people start remembering their dead family members and friends who died up 70 years ago or beyond?

The whole society should become nuts watching people asking for the building of museums to post pictures of accidents that happened decades ago, and so forth.


That's it! It was an accident!
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 03:32 am
Great war machine . . . ah-hahahahahahahahahahaha . . . the Germans were a legend in their own minds. More than two and a half million horses died or were killed in service of the great German war machine. Their tanks, marginally superior in some respects, were difficult, expensive and slow to manufacture, and they produced a few tens of thousands in all categories. The United States produced more than 50,000 Sherman tanks (unfairly maligned) and the Russians produced nearly 80,000 T-34s. The T34 was ahead of it's time when it was introduced, and the German panzer general von Kleist called it "the finest tank in the world" in 1941. Below are some images of the awesome German war machine moving artillery and delivering supplies to their troops.

http://cdn-4.olive-drab.com/images/army-horses-mules_ww2_06_700.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-215-0366-03A%2C_Russland%2C_Soldat%2C_Pferd_im_Winter.jpg/400px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-215-0366-03A%2C_Russland%2C_Soldat%2C_Pferd_im_Winter.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/19/2f/69/192f6935728135469d9c6b9339d3a3e1.jpg

The Messerschmitt Bf 110, a two-engine, two-seat fighter, was such a piece of **** that when they sent them over England in the Battle of Britain, they had to send Bf 109s along to escort them--otherwise, they'd all get shot down.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-377-2801-013%2C_Flugzeug_Messerschmitt_Me_110.jpg

The Idiot in Chief, Hitler, was so obsessed with the idea that they built the 210 and the 410--German pilots called them flying coffins.

The Germans in Normandy had a saying: "If you see a white plane, it's the Tommies; if you see a black plane, it's the Amis (Americans); if you don't see any planes at all, it's the Luftwaffe."

Their highly-trained fallschirmjäger--paratroopers--were delivered to the drop zone in Junkers 52, tri-motor transports--at a speed of 125 mph. Biplane fighters at the end of World War I were faster than that. In the airborne assault in Crete in May, 1941, many German fallschirmjäger had to jump from burning transports because of the heavy AAA around the airfields. One company in the assault regiment lost 112 men out of 126. Another battalion in that regiment lost 400 out of 600 men--and that was just getting on the ground. Almost three hundred aircraft were destroyed or written off, and hundreds more were badly damaged. Casualties were so high that Adolf the F*cking Idiot Hitler never allowed them to jump into combat again. Below is an image of the mighty German Ju52s in Crete:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-166-0512-39%2C_Kreta%2C_Abgestürzte_Ju_52.jpg

I've driven down the interstate in west Texas at night faster than those suckers could fly.

Nazi lovers crack me up--they're almost always appallingly ignorant about their first love in life.

The mighty German war machine . . .

. . . Ah-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . .
hightor
 
  7  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 03:35 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I think that a sort of "fetishization" of history going on, which is coinciding with a sort of "spring cleaning of the cultural attic". You know those boxes of old X-mas decorations, old photos of unidentified "ancestors", and old children's clothes people are loathe to pat with? Boxes of old cookbooks, school projects, and decorative glassware gathering dust and taking up space? "But we can't throw that out; it's history." I don't buy it. It's "stuff". "History" is what happened and our changing interpretation of what happened then in light of what we know today. History is not the physical accumulation and preservation of trinkets, mementos, and souvenirs. Tearing down a statue and putting it in a museum is not "destroying" anyone's history or culture. We could tear down the Lincoln Memorial and guess what — Lincoln would still be with us. The things he said and did and the world's response to them affected our nation and the world. We don't need a mausoleum to honor and celebrate Lincoln — we think we need it in order to feel good about ourselves. "Aren't we wonderful! We had a sculptor make a statue of a guy on a horse! And it's bigger than the one in Rome! Aren't we pious and respectful?" Childish stuff.
Walter Hinteler
 
  6  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 04:16 am
@hightor,
Additionally, I think, history means as well, knowing who erected what monument/memorial and why.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 04:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
. . . knowing who erected what monument/memorial and why. (emphasis added)


One of the cogent objections to many of the Confederate statues is that they were erected in the "post-reconstruction," Jim Crow era. The why of an action is often the most important question.
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 04:24 am
@hightor,
A museum is the proper place for things like that where it can be seen in context. When something is on public display, in a park or outside a town hall there is an assumption that the statue is in keeping with today's values.

Some are, the Lincoln Memorial being a prime example, but many are not.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 04:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Good point, Walter.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 06:18 am
@centrox,
Quote:


Wow. You really are a PIECE OF ****.


Its his keenest aspiration. And he NAILED it.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 06:19 am
@wmwcjr,
Ignore Finn and he'll go away.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 06:22 am
@emmett grogan,
So I'm not the only one who thinks Cameronleon is Finn's latest sockpuppet.
emmett grogan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 06:27 am
@izzythepush,
Cameroneon is a sockpuppet and Finn has perpetrated "hoaxes", like his open heart surgery. Its not a leap.
cameronleon
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 06:31 am
@roger,
Quote:
Got it! The deaths of WWII were caused by allies trying to destroy a great war machine..


According to records, thousands of allies airplanes were bombing Germany's facilities 24/7 365 days since 1941 up to the end of the war.

4 years of continued bombing day and night over factories, storage places, roads, cities in Germany and Nazi controlled areas.

Now, use your calculator.

A factory producing guns or bullets, had 20 German troops and 500 detainees pulled from concentration camps to provide free labor.

Allies airplanes bombed the factory.

There you go: 500 "Jews" killed by friendly fire. Lol

Multiply the same scenario after each bombing made by allies in German's factories, storage places, water facilities, roads, cities (thousands of detainees were used in cities for labor, like cleaning debris before and after the continued bombing of allies airplanes)

There you go, your "millions" of "Jews" killed in ww2 not by Hitler but by the allies.

Remember, because there are even books narrating the bombing strategy of the allies destroying the most they can in order to stop Hitler's war machine. They were thousands of airplanes 24/7 365 days day and night bombing like crazy over German's factories, storage places, water facilities, roads, cities...

Of course, this part of history is not shown in your books at school because people will immediately realize that these bombings were the cause of so many deaths... not only Germans but also detainees... and in great numbers...

Any objection to this fact? Hmmm?

Hitler's name must be vindicated because he didn't cause the death of those "millions" of people, the Holocaust museums must update the information and stop pointing the Nazis as the murderers or, these museums must be simply be turned down like the statues of the Confederates.


izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 06:36 am
@emmett grogan,
It's not and I thought exactly the same. Maybe he's using Cameronleon to express what he really feels, or to make himself appear reasonable in contast, or more likely a mixture of both. All I know is that Cameronleon appeared about the same time Finn's open heart surgery lies were exposed.
cameronleon
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 06:38 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Great war machine . . . ah-hahahahahahahahahahaha . . . the Germans were a legend in their own minds. More than two and a half million horses died or were killed in service of the great German war machine. Their tanks, marginally superior in some respects, were difficult, expensive and slow to manufacture, and they produced a few tens of thousands in all categories. The United States produced more than 50,000 Sherman tanks (unfairly maligned) and the Russians produced nearly 80,000 T-34s. The T34 was ahead of it's time when it was introduced, and the German panzer general von Kleist called it "the finest tank in the world" in 1941....

...The Messerschmitt Bf 110, a two-engine, two-seat fighter, was such a piece of **** that when they sent them over England in the Battle of Britain, they had to send Bf 109s along to escort them--otherwise, they'd all get shot down.

...The Idiot in Chief, Hitler, was so obsessed with the idea that they built the 210 and the 410--German pilots called them flying coffins.

The Germans in Normandy had a saying: "If you see a white plane, it's the Tommies; if you see a black plane, it's the Amis (Americans); if you don't see any planes at all, it's the Luftwaffe."

Their highly-trained fallschirmjäger--paratroopers--were delivered to the drop zone in Junkers 52, tri-motor transports--at a speed of 125 mph. Biplane fighters at the end of World War I were faster than that. In the airborne assault in Crete in May, 1941, many German fallschirmjäger had to jump from burning transports because of the heavy AAA around the airfields. One company in the assault regiment lost 112 men out of 126. Another battalion in that regiment lost 400 out of 600 men--and that was just getting on the ground. Almost three hundred aircraft were destroyed or written off, and hundreds more were badly damaged. Casualties were so high that Adolf the F*cking Idiot Hitler never allowed them to jump into combat again....


You are correct.

An idiot can't cause the murdering of 6 million Jews in ww2.

For to kill such amount of people is required an excellent war machine, like the one the allies had in that war.

Thanks for providing such a valuable information.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 07:40 am
@cameronleon,
cameronleon wrote:
You might be correct.

However, true or not, are you to condone it?

Lets say that it happened, the killing of males of an entire city were killed just because one of them raped a woman of the Israelite.

If in a far future other culture or peoples do the same "justice" against the Israelite, even when is not an act of justice but another mass murdering, is it a reason to forget the cruel past behavior of the Israelite and remember only when they are the victims?

I ask.

Using one atrocity to diminish another atrocity is wrong. It only serves to diminish both atrocities.

I ran into that tactic fighting over the Amanda Knox case. People would try to diminish her plight by referring to cases where American courts sent innocent people to prison. At first I had a dilemma over how to respond. If I had attacked the other case directly I'd be diminishing the plight of the victim of the American courts, and that was the last thing I wanted to do. I solved my dilemma by condemning the other poster for daring to use one atrocity to try to justify another.

Atrocities should be universally condemned outright without ever being conpared to any other atrocity.

And there is really no reason to think that that part of the Bible is true. Archaeology shows that the Israelites were not invaders, but were rather former Canaanites starting over with a new society after Canaanite society collapsed at the end of the Bronze Age.


cameronleon wrote:
Question is, was Hitler the one who killed those hundreds of thousands of detainees, which gave him free hand labor for his war machine?

If not Hitler, then somebody else caused their deaths.

Here is when you must make a review of the war actions and you are going to have the surprise of your life.

It wasn't Hitler.

No. It was Hitler.

I'm sure it was people under him who did the killing, and he didn't get his hands dirty himself. But Hitler was the person who ordered that millions of people be murdered.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 07:42 am
@cameronleon,
cameronleon wrote:
That name "Holocaust".

Such is a weird "technical word", and I still searching who invented it that way.

As a technical term it means "genocide", right?

And genocide is the killing of people of a certain origin, race. class, etc.

Some definitions add planning of the killing.

Genocide requires the intent to extinguish a race or culture.

Merely deliberately killing large numbers of civilians without an intent to extinguish a race or culture would be called a crime against humanity.


cameronleon wrote:
I guess that the killing of hundreds of thousands of people in WW2 was indeed planned, but from my point of view, the planning was not for extermination purposes but that it was a necessary action in order to destroy the great war machine of Hitler.

The Holocaust intentionally killed millions of innocent people. Allied attacks against German military targets were not directed against civilians.


cameronleon wrote:
Anyway, on TV I saw programs were money is asked and "survivors" of the Holocaust are seen giving their version of their suffering and sniff sniff, people send money to help them.

I am not aware of any such TV programs.


cameronleon wrote:
The war is over, it happened 70 years ago, all this propaganda like a bleeding open wound is just a circus where smart dudes take advantage of others by playing the "forever victims"

An insistence that history not be whitewashed is hardly propaganda.


cameronleon wrote:
You say you don't believe in the Holocaust, and these dudes attack you saying you are anti-Semite, that Hitler this and that, they put you on "ignore", they group themselves against you, etc.

Holocaust denial is very hurtful. It is natural that people become very angry when someone hurts them that deeply.


cameronleon wrote:
Look, the biblical Abraham cried for his wife an entire month, later on he got married again and even had concubines. The bible says that he had several more children.

I strongly suggest that Jews must imitate father Abraham, and should remember the deaths of WW2 for a month and later keep going.

That story is hardly a realistic example of how people react to the death of someone they care about, especially when that death is the result of a horrible crime like the Holocaust.

More to the point though, these people have gotten on with their lives. If there is any great focus on the Holocaust today it is not because they are excessively dwelling on it, but because they are reacting in anger to Holocaust denial.

If people stopped provoking them with outrageous Holocaust denial, there would not be a need for any counteraction to that Holocaust denial.


cameronleon wrote:
Again, these dudes must imitate father Abraham.

Any psychologist will suggest a treatment to an individual who is not capable to let go and recover after losing a family member.

Here we have thousands if not millions of dudes who must receive treatment to be capable of letting go and recover.

They are not excessively dwelling on the past. When people try to whitewash a horrible crime, it is a normal reaction to refuse to let the crime be whitewashed.


cameronleon wrote:
The Holocaust page must be turned and a new page must be written.

The Holocaust is always going to be remembered as a horrible and unforgivable crime. No one is ever going to allow it to be whitewashed.


cameronleon wrote:
You are mixing exagerate remembrance of deaths of a war that happened 70 years ago with Holocaust deniers.

In this discussion, one thing has nothing to do with the another.

That is incorrect. There is no exaggerated remembrance of those deaths. All there is, is a perfectly normal outrage against Holocaust denial. And that outrage is directly linked to the Holocaust denial which provoked it.


cameronleon wrote:
Those dudes must let go and start a new life or get into a mental institution.

They have started a new life. But they are not going to allow Holocaust denial to stand.

And rightly so. Such horrendous crimes should not be whitewashed.


cameronleon wrote:
Can you imagine if all the people start remembering their dead family members and friends who died up 70 years ago or beyond?

Heh. Way back when (long before WWII), my great uncle was involved in a gun battle that ended with him sneaking up behind the county sheriff and putting a 12 gauge slug in the back of his head. It wasn't as famous a shoot out as the OK Corral, but to this day, now and then the county still whines how their precious sheriff was gunned down so cruelly and my extended family bristles in defiant outrage. Just a couple weeks ago I actually got to hold "the shotgun" as it was brought out of storage because the family is going to have it professionally restored.

The West still remembers Islam's unprovoked aggression against the Roman Empire more than a thousand years ago. The Muslims still whine because the West had the temerity to launch the Crusades in response to the Muslims' aggression.

You can't escape history. The harder you try, the more history will rear up and confront you.


cameronleon wrote:
The whole society should become nuts watching people asking for the building of museums to post pictures of accidents that happened decades ago, and so forth.

Come on.

Such behavior is unacceptable

Remembrances of horrible atrocities are perfectly acceptable. What is unacceptable is the whitewashing of those atrocities.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 07:46 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
One of the cogent objections to many of the Confederate statues is that they were erected in the "post-reconstruction," Jim Crow era.

Hardly cogent. That is just the liberals trying to justify their anti-south bigotry.


Setanta wrote:
The why of an action is often the most important question.

The why of the action is because Confederate veterans were starting to die of old age and people wanted new generations to remember the war.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 07:48 am
@emmett grogan,
emmett grogan wrote:
Cameroneon is a sockpuppet

The only person here who has been caught using sockpuppets, is YOU.


emmett grogan wrote:
Finn has perpetrated "hoaxes", like his open heart surgery.

Liar.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 07:51 am
@cameronleon,
cameronleon wrote:
According to records, thousands of allies airplanes were bombing Germany's facilities 24/7 365 days since 1941 up to the end of the war.

4 years of continued bombing day and night over factories, storage places, roads, cities in Germany and Nazi controlled areas.

Now, use your calculator.

A factory producing guns or bullets, had 20 German troops and 500 detainees pulled from concentration camps to provide free labor.

Allies airplanes bombed the factory.

There you go: 500 "Jews" killed by friendly fire. Lol

Multiply the same scenario after each bombing made by allies in German's factories, storage places, water facilities, roads, cities (thousands of detainees were used in cities for labor, like cleaning debris before and after the continued bombing of allies airplanes)

There you go, your "millions" of "Jews" killed in ww2 not by Hitler but by the allies.

If any Jews were killed as collateral damage, that does not change the fact that the Nazis deliberately murdered six million innocent Jews and some five million other innocent people.


cameronleon wrote:
Remember, because there are even books narrating the bombing strategy of the allies destroying the most they can in order to stop Hitler's war machine. They were thousands of airplanes 24/7 365 days day and night bombing like crazy over German's factories, storage places, water facilities, roads, cities...

Of course, this part of history is not shown in your books at school because people will immediately realize that these bombings were the cause of so many deaths... not only Germans but also detainees... and in great numbers...

Any objection to this fact? Hmmm?

Collateral damage is unfortunate, but it is not quite the same as intentionally murdering millions of innocent people.


cameronleon wrote:
Hitler's name must be vindicated because he didn't cause the death of those "millions" of people, the Holocaust museums must update the information and stop pointing the Nazis as the murderers or, these museums must be simply be turned down like the statues of the Confederates.

Hitler caused the deaths of more than 11 million innocent people. His name will not be vindicated.

The Nazis were murderers. Their names will not be vindicated.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 07:54 am
@oralloy,
Quote:

Using one atrocity to diminish another atrocity is wrong. It only serves to diminish both atrocities.


Quote:

No. It was Hitler.

I'm sure it was people under him who did the killing, and he didn't get his hands dirty himself. But Hitler was the person who ordered that millions of people be murdered.


I'm stunned. I agree with you. Thumb up.
 

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