The Statue Wars Begin

Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2017 06:33 am
They're very much like climate change deniers: nothing you can say will ever change their mind.
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2017 06:53 am
cameronleon wrote:
Yes, 3'000,001 dead bodies.

No 6 million but 3 million.

You have no evidence for those other 3 million.

Even if we accepted the figure of 3 million Jews (and how many non-Jews?), the systematic murder of millions of innocent people is still an unforgivable atrocity.

But we do have evidence for the estimate of around six million Jews murdered. The Nazis left ample records of all of their massacres.

cameronleon wrote:
I will tell you the following:

In South America, in the 50s and 60s, there was noticeable the presence of "white poor people" living in poor neighborhoods sending their children to public schools. Between children named Huaman and Quispe, there was a Perez Cupe Cupe... ha ha ha ha...

Not only Jews but Europeans in general migrated to other continents. The 3 million of missing Jews who lack of a burial place are now dead in other countries under a different name in many cases and having living as Catholics.

Some countries stop their entrance but other countries, lets say Chile, opened the doors.

The plain truth is that such a number of 6'000,000 dead Jews in ww2 is a grotesque exaggeration.

Not according to the ample documentation left behind by the people who organized the systematic murders.

cameronleon wrote:
The common observation with these immigrants was that they never had pictures with their family members, like to say, birthday celebrations, school records, and lots of documents proving that they did belong to the country they were living at that moment.

This situation is very sad, but no doubt that millions evacuated from Europe running away from Hitler.

This is something that your "reputable scholars" hide and you are not able to know the true history of those people.

Since these scholars are quite thorough with their research, it is unfair to demean their reputation by acting as if they are not truly scholars.

And they are hiding nothing. No one is denying that many people escaped the Holocaust. But the fact remains, government records from the time clearly document that in the neighborhood of six million Jews were systematically murdered. In addition some five million non-Jews were also systematically murdered.

cameronleon wrote:
Your "reputable historians" can't tell you that the Allies were the ones killing detainees like crazy with their daily bombing over Nazi factories.

Actually a lot of historians document the collateral damage from the carpet bombing. I've heard people from the UK refer to "Bomber Harris" as "Butcher Harris" and say that he should not be venerated as a great war leader. Personally I think they are too hard on the guy. I'd like to see them try to face the same decisions that he had to make during the war. But I respect their free speech rights to say what they like about a public figure.

But this is beside the point. The fact that allied bombing caused collateral damage does not change the reality that the Nazi government systematically murdered more than eleven million innocent people including some six million Jews.

cameronleon wrote:
You have been deceived in order to cover up the actions of the Allies in WW2.

There is no deception. German records leave no doubt that the Nazi government murdered some six million innocent Jews and some five million innocents of other persuasions.

cameronleon wrote:
The Allies knew that they were killing hundreds of thousands of detainees with their bombings for about 4 years, and they knew that they had no other choice because destroying Hitler's war machine was the objective.

The big lie said to the people was to input those deaths to Hitler as "war crimes".

There was no lie. Government records show very clearly that the Nazis systematically murdered some six million Jews and some five million other people.

cameronleon wrote:
Look, I repeat, any honorable war strategist will tell you the same, that it was ridiculous having Hitler killing detainees like crazy at the moment when the war was winning ground in favor of the Allies.

That does not change the reality that Hitler did exactly that.

cameronleon wrote:
The acceptable explanation for the miserable condition of concentration camps far away from Berlin is the lack of food, medicines, and similar by fault of destroyed roads, destroyed storage places, destroyed Nazi resources caused by the daily bombing of the Allies.

That may well explain miserable conditions, but miserable conditions are no justification for systematically murdering millions of innocent people.

cameronleon wrote:
It is evident that history must be rewritten, because the current version of this sad part of WW2 is a big lie.

Nazi government records make it very clear that there is no lie. The Nazis did systematically murder millions of innocent people.

cameronleon wrote:
Why having the Nazis grouping people, filling up trains, taking them to concentration camps, and killing them?

Why such a waste of war logistic?

If the intentions of the Nazis was to kill Jews and others, just shooting them where they were found was the easiest way, the practical way.

At that moment in the war, nobody was going to Germany to visit Hitler, no one was making films about how well Nazis treated the detainees, neither the arrest of detainees. The Nazis had all the opportunity of killing anyone, even their deserters in the middle of the streets and no one to impede them for doing so.

The Nazis tried that at first. Lots and lots of Holocaust victims were machinegunned into mass graves. They had trouble getting people to keep doing it though, especially on the scale that they wanted to commit their mass murders, so they had to resort to more secretive methods that were less openly blatant.

cameronleon wrote:
The fable of having Nazis collecting people from one place to send them to other locations for the sole purpose of killing them is laughable from the point of view of strategy of war.

Government records from Nazi Germany show very clearly that it was no fable. The Nazis really did systematically murder more than eleven million innocent people, some six million of them Jews.

cameronleon wrote:
Hitler might have been a very bad guy, but he wasn't an idiot to plan such a ridiculous strategy.

Actually he was. There is ample evidence that Hitler was an idiot, especially when it came to military matters.

cameronleon wrote:
If you call Hitler the worst enemy ever, then you are saying the right definition, but if you are calling him a "war criminal", then you are insulting him and he doesn't deserve such an insult because he never ordered such mass murdering.

The term "war criminal" is a bit mild when it comes to genocidal monsters.

But Hitler did order the systematic murder of more than eleven million innocent people (including some six million Jews) so he is rightly condemned for that crime.

cameronleon wrote:
Our new generations don't deserve receiving a twisted history of the WW2 events, just because the Allies decided to input crimes to Hitler, crimes that Hitler never committed.

Government records from Nazi Germany show very clearly that Hitler ordered the systematic murder of more than eleven million innocent people.

cameronleon wrote:
In this matter, I won't marry to anyone but the truth, and the truth is that millions died because collateral damage, millions died by friendly fire, millions died because the Allies bombed Germany and Nazis conquered lands with thousands of airplanes 24/7 for more than 4 years.

In addition to that truth, it is also true that more than eleven million innocent people died because the Nazi government intentionally murdered them.

cameronleon wrote:
Unless you prove that the bombs of the Allies were sent with such an excellent aim that killed German troops only... so your fable will be complete at last.

No one denies that there was collateral damage. But that does not change the reality that the Nazis intentionally murdered more than eleven million innocent people.
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2017 07:46 am
All you can do is refute their crap for the benefit of lurkers.
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2017 08:09 am
I used to think that but now I am not even sure it helps anymore. Truth is dead.
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Walter Hinteler
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2017 09:08 am
Denier's "logic" at the finest.
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Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2017 01:11 pm
This statue must be removed.

It belongs to a Pastor, this means, to a religious person.

It won't matter how much this individual contributed for a certain group in society, he was a religious man, with religious principles, and the movement or revolution he created was in the name of his god.

(Ironically, the bible does not condemn slavery, and the bible does make a difference between groups of people and orders the followers not to mix with others who are not in the same religion.)


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Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 03:12 am
cameronleon wrote:
Whom are you going to deceive with such lies about "German records"?

No deception. No lies. I promise to always tell you the truth.

That doesn't mean I can't be wrong, but I'll never deliberately say something untrue.

It is very unlikely that I'll be wrong about anything here though.

cameronleon wrote:
This is the original picture took of the Buchenwald bunks, a picture published in May 1945 in the New York Times magazine. (I did surf the web long ago and yes indeed, the original picture is found in the New York Times magazine records. It is together with several other pictures throughout the pages.



The FAKERS weren't happy with that picture. They called a friend of them and told him that he will become famous. A good make up, asking him to lose weight, dressing him almost naked, say "cheese" and there you go, adding a good Photoshop work ending in a fake picture.

And this is the Photoshop picture posted every where in the internet and in every Holocaust museum


The same as this picture presented in Holocaust museums is a FAKE, because it has been altered,

I don't know anything about that picture, whether it has been altered, or whether it has been displayed by any particular parties.

I'm sure though that if any Holocaust museums did display an altered picture, they did so unknowingly, and removed the altered picture upon discovering that it was altered.

If someone did display an altered picture somewhere before, that does not change the reality that the Nazis deliberately murdered more than eleven million innocent people.

cameronleon wrote:
the same as well your famous "German documents" are also a FAKE.

Throughout the years, the fakers have had plenty time to collect German office blank paper, old ink, old typewriter machines, old stamp seals, and fabricated FAKE documents, which they swear are "original and legitimate". Lol

Actually most of the documentation came to light immediately after the war and was used in evidence at the Nuremburg tribunals.

The documentation was certainly not fake.

cameronleon wrote:
If you read the article, from where I have copied the picture of the Buchenwald bunks, you will know that the story around it by "survivors' is also full of LIES.

If some article somewhere happens to be untrue, that does not change the reality that the Nazis provided ample documentation of their massacres of millions of innocent people.

cameronleon wrote:
It is funny, that right after the fable of "gas chambers" was proved as such, a false event because scientifically is not possible at all the former existence of gas chambers because the lack of sealed doors and a proper ventilation system, suddenly, in a far away hotel, in a room, hidden somewhere, the fakers found a sales receipt of "insulated doors" which might have been used for the rooms assumed to be gas chambers.

The gas chambers were not a fable or a false event. Those murders really happened.

No one has ever disproved their existence. Nor could they, given the impossibility of disproving reality.

cameronleon wrote:
Those lies... one over another are a deceived propaganda.

Except they are not lies. The Nazis really did systematically murder millions of innocent people.

cameronleon wrote:
The Holocaust indeed it happened, but the ones who caused it wasn't Hitler and neither the Nazis but the Allies.

That is incorrect. Hitler and the Nazis were the ones who intentionally murdered more than eleven million innocent people.

cameronleon wrote:
So don't call me "Holocaust denier" because such is another lie from the Holocaust fanatics in this discussion.

Labeling other posters seldom leads to a productive discussion.

I believe that you are posting your views in good faith. That you honestly believe that the Nazis are innocent and have been wronged.

However, you are in error. The Nazis really are guilty of the mass murders that they are accused of perpetrating.

Considering the pain that it causes the victims when people deny the guilt of the perpetrators, it should be understandable that people will grow angry and lash out at you for doing so, even though you believe that you are doing the right thing.
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 06:27 am
@oralloy - those images are from a Holocaust denial blog.

The allegedly 'correct' one appears to be the photoshopped one. Someone was a rather sloppy photoshopper and just created a big heavy blob over the standing man. This blob failed to cover a portion of the photograph which shows the guy's shadow on the floor. A better photoshop job would have been to cover over the shadow. Incompetent photoshopping fakers often screw up the shadows; this is an instance of that.

Sheesh, even the Holocaust deniers can't doctor a photograph properly.
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 06:30 am
There are just incredible scum posting here.
Walter Hinteler
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 06:49 am
Although that is widely known (and has been published in print and years later online with the related primary sources), Holocaust deniers still refer to it.
Somehow, such gives sense.
About the state of mind of these deniers.
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Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 07:01 am
Setanta wrote:

There are just incredible scum posting here.

Incredible. Scum.
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Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 11:39 am
I don't know anything about that picture, whether it has been altered, or whether it has been displayed by any particular parties.

I'm sure though that if any Holocaust museums did display an altered picture, they did so unknowingly, and removed the altered picture upon discovering that it was altered.

This is the original picture taken right at the end of WW2 and published in the New York Times in May 1945


This is the picture of the same Buchenwald bunks published and in records in the Holocaust Museum.



Record Type: Photograph
Photograph # 74607
Caption: Former prisoners of the "little camp" in Buchenwald stare out from the wooden bunks in which they slept three to a "bed."

The man in the bottom left hand corner has been identified as Michael Nikolas Gruner, originally from Hungary, Gershon Blonder Kleinman or Yosef Reich. Isaac Reich is in the bottom row, second from the right and Max Hamburger is on the bottom row, fourth from the left. Perry Shulman from Klimitov, Poland is on the top bunk, second from the left (looking up). The man in the second row, third from left has been identified as Dawid Najman. The man in the second row, fourth from the left has been identified as Abraham Hipler; Berek Rosencajg from Lodz or Zoltan Gergely from Cluj. The man on the third bunk from the bottom, third from the left, has b...

Date: 1945 April 16
Locale: Buchenwald, [Thuringia] Germany ...

Published Source: KZ: Bildbericht aus funf Konzentrationslagern - #2

National Archives and Records Administration, College Park
Copyright: Public Domain
Source Record ID: 111-SC-203647 (Album 1727)

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
Copyright: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
Provenance: Harold Royall
Source Record ID: 111-SC-203647 (Album 1727)
Maxine I. Rude
Copyright: Agency Agreement (Permission Required)

Photo Credit: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, courtesy of National Archives and Records Administration, College Park

Liars... liars... liars...


Definitively the Holocaust Museum is showing a fake picture, and the same is happening with documents, all of them FAKE.

When you defend liars as if they are telling the truth, you are like a dude sending a drone to investigate about a person, and surveying the wrong address Lol

In other words, you have no idea of what are you doing when defending those liars.

Check the source of the fake picture in the web address given above and given back again right below.


Somehow these fakers want to make famous the almost naked dude who has been added in the picture.

This is the way these fakers obtain donations, faking a suffering for 70 years ago dead people... lol

Look, do a favor to yourself, next time before talking trash, first verify your sources.

At this time, you failed miserably because the fraud is clear.

Fake, fake, and fake... such is all this propaganda about Hitler sending to death millions of people.

The Allies are the ones who caused the dearth of millions of detainees who where working as slaves in German factories.

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Walter Hinteler
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 12:16 pm
I really do wonder
a) about the mental and intellectual mind of someone posting such stuff above,
b) about why this is posted (though that could be answered by "a)" ).
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 12:27 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
simple answer:

Walter Hinteler
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 12:43 pm
Due to the German (and my family's) history, and because I've studied history, live close to a couple of concentration camps, worked quite a bit about that period ... I don't ignore Nazis but fight them. (Niemöller - "At first they came for ..." - was born in the town where I live now.)
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Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2017 01:21 pm
You who live safe
In your warm houses,
You who find, returning in the evening,
Hot food and friendly faces:

Consider if this is a man
Who works in the mud
Who does not know peace
Who fights for a scrap of bread
Who dies because of a yes or a no.
Consider if this is a woman,
Without hair and without name
With no more strength to remember,
Her eyes empty and her womb cold
Like a frog in winter.

Meditate that this came about:
I commend these words to you.
Carve them in your hearts
At home, in the street,
Going to bed, rising;
Repeat them to your children,

Or may your house fall apart,
May illness impede you,
May your children turn their faces from you.

Primo Levi
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