Re: Slappy: I'm up for your challenge!
LOL! This thread really heated up, huh? And I missed the popcorn and everything ... OK, see if I can do a quick run-thru ...first a proper response to Kryian's ...
Kyrian wrote:My point is if one continuously seeks emotional and/or sexual satisifaction outside of the relationship with the same venue (porn, in this case) then, yes, I believe it passes the definition for cheating. Let's not play this down to the level of reading a book or talking to a friend.
OK, I'm glad you agreed to take the "emotional" out there, that sure was a little oppressive. So, regarding the sexual, can we "play it down" to the level of masturbating, then? Many men are more visually stimulated than many women, as a generalisation, with many exceptions to the rule, so while a woman is more likely to find the fodder for her masturbation fantasies in narrative stuff, men are more likely to find it in visual stuff. So, where's the beef? Why would one be cheating and the other one not?
Or is
all masturbation that does not focus on one's spouse cheating? This brings me back to the realm of mind control. Marriages, like any other kind of social contract between individuals, regulate behavior to mutually acceptable venues. But people's
thoughts should be as free as birds. Noone should want to tell someone else, least of all someone (s)he loves, what he is and is not allowed to think about.
I woulda thought that the principle that, whatever ties one voluntarily commits to in behaviour, one's
thoughts are always only one's own possession would be kinda universal, but hey, perhaps I'm naive ... I just read in a thread here that a US Supreme Court Justice lamented a recent ruling that took masturbation, amongst other things, out of the realm of legal regulation, after all - and I am vaguely aware that some religious folks consider masturbation sinful. All that, I admit, is rather alien to me, very far from my, eh, bed, as we say here. ;-)
OK, you say, but its
not just thoughts, its behaviour - the guy sits himself down and watches pictures, "reads" Playboy. But back to square one - why would someone (say, a man) masturbating over a picture be cheating but someone (say, a woman) masturbating over a mental image not? I just don't see the logic.
Kyrian wrote:Since when is cheating defined solely through sexual action?
The porn threads on this board have honestly been the very first time I've seen a definition of "cheating" that
does go beyond matters of sexual action. (Perhaps a cultural thing.)
Kyrian wrote:If you want to take out the word "emotional", fine by me. Who am I to split hairs. But, I'll bet that if your wife told you she was in love with someone else, even if she hadn't engaged in sexual activity with the other man, you'd still feel cheated on... :wink:
I'd feel devastated. (I've been in that situation, alas.) But if she told me that she was in love with someone else,
before - and
instead - of actually acting on it, then no, she would not have cheated on me, in my world - that woulda been the whole point of telling me, in fact, I presume. Not to cheat on me, to tell me instead. What I would do upon that ... well, I went through the "let's try to stick together through this crisis if you promise not to act on it and stay away from the guy as much as possible" routine, it didn't end well, so now I would probably just leave, at least temporarily. But no, I mean yes - I might feel cheated (by life, fate, so on), but she wouldn't have cheated on me - not yet - that would be the whole point.
Kyrian wrote:nimh wrote: If you go dancing (whether in a disco or on your local community ballroom dancing course), and the dancing heats you up a little inside and it's part of what has you extra fired up when you then make love with your man at night - have you cheated?).
There is sexual
arousal and there is sexual
satisfaction. Suffice it to say that I look at the latter as the end result of the former.
True, good distinction. That would be why I wouldnt appreciate my partner to find her sexual
satisfaction with her dance partner <grins> - and I would appreciate it greatly if she lived down any excess sexual energy with me, preferably, or all by herself, instead. No problem with masturbation here
. 'S long as she comes to me for more common lovin' as well ...
Kyrian wrote:I think I've already established that one can achieve sexual satisfaction without benefit of physical contact with another person. Therefore, saying that porn isn't cheating because there isn't physical contact with another person is moot. [..] Physical contact is not a requirement so let's not treat porn as if it's exempt from the definition of cheating. It simply isn't.
Well, its only moot within the definition you apply that makes it moot - classic circular reasoning. I would say cheating is achieving sexual satisfaction
with someone else, as in instead of with me. But if she finds sexual satisfaction with and by herself, how is that cheating? And what difference does it make whether she does so by conjuring up scenes in her mind or looking at them first? Hey, we're not all blessed with equally vivid imaginations ... ;-)
Kyrian wrote:I've personally never felt the need to fantasize about another man. But, remember, women aren't as visual as men are, right? So, it shouldn't be surprising that many of us aren't dependent on that kind of image.
OK, fine, but if we buy into this general male/female dichotomy for a while more still then (sorry ebeth, kristie, etc), then err, isnt it a bit unfair to exclude the avenues of arousal women use when masturbating from the definition of "cheating", but include the ones men use?
Kyrian wrote:Don't the vows say something about "forsaking all others"? You tell me.
I didn't realise the "all others" included the others
in your thoughts as well ... I had assumed it to refer to "real life interactions", as in, forsake amorous and sexual relations with anyone except your wife from now on.
Guess thats all a matter of theology, so to say ... in the Quran, it says somewhere that it is forbidden for men to be "in touch with" women other than their wive(s) ... most Muslims take this to mean not touching other women sexually, but the most orthodox ones (like an Imam who stirred up a row here this weekend by refusing to shake the female minister of integration's hand), see it as something much more all-encompassing ... I don't like fundies, myself
Kyrian wrote:Children suffer when the relationship between mom and dad suffers. When mom and dad are no longer intimate and loving toward one another, for any reason, bet your bottom dollar that the kids pay a price for that.
Oh yeah. But again, you apparently attribute any fight that might occur between spouses about porn to be the fault of the one using the porn. Again, I would say that if two partners have conflicting needs, they'll need to compromise, and its whoever refuses to budge at all who is to blame - and as we've seen that could well be either of them.
Kyrian wrote:nimh wrote: The one needs to sometimes just be able to dream away a bit into an (erotic) dimension that, for one moment, does not include wife, kids, work or household. And the other gets mighty insecure/hurt/suspicious if he does that, and needs him to stop. How does the need in marriage to "acknowledge that one is an extension of the other" equates necessarily with the conclusion that he'll just have to give up his emotional need to satisfy hers?
But, it's ok for HER to give up her emotional needs so that HIS are met?
It isn't. They'll just have to compromise (see above), won't they? Labelling one's needs as wrong or immoral a priori doesn't help much, in that regard. I dunno - say, if she has a problem being confronted with it, then let him do it so she dont ever notice. And let her take a moment of to realise that no, it doesnt mean he doesnt love her anymore, or that he thinks she is ugly. For random example.
If you trust each other enough to still love each other even while you
don't quite agree with everything the other does, you won't feel the need to police each others actions either ...
Kyrian wrote:Yes, and I thoroughly enjoyed your comments! Thank you!
Same here ... Slappy's gonna have a heart attack when he finds out we turned all serious
