1
   

Never forget. Some need a reminder. Powerful video clip

 
 
bashtoreth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:47 pm
willow_tl wrote:
I don't need a video to remind me of the woman jumping out of the window or implying that if i don't agree with the war(s) my government has engaged in then i am somehow less of an American and i should leave my country


Why do you infer all that from the video? It doesn't even mention Iraq. And probably for good reason. I don't agree with the president's decision to invade Iraq either, but I did not feel convicted by the piece in any way other than feeling that I should do more in service to my fellow citizens.

Quote:
...but tell me please what do you think the purpose of the video was? I don't know how anyone in America can forget that terrible day...and now the terrible aftermath...Tammie


I think the purpose was to reassociate the emotions with the memory. It worked for you, but the emotions it provoked were not those intended I am sure. I seriously <b>hadn't</b> thought about the people leaning and jumping out of windows for a very long time. Seeing it made me remember the rage that I felt and reinforced my resolve to do anything I can to keep it from happening again (what little I can do).
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:50 pm
dlowan wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
The absurd notion that this isn't a cheap appeal to pity argument (see Argumentum ad misericordiam) with political motivation is belied by the fact that the author states said motivation explicitly.

The author states the reason for "Blood of Heroes" and exposes a political motivation that many here suspected and that others tried to imagine was not there.

Here are some relevant excerpts from the author's politically motivated rant.

Quote:
Why is the "Blood of Heroes" web site here?

In October of 2002, after hearing all the nay-sayers whining about going to war to fight against terrorism, (and to protect our interests and defend our allies) I wondered; how exactly do we defend and maintain our freedom then? If not by the violent destruction of those who would threaten us, then by what means? There comes a time when even peace loving people have to fight.

With all the invective about ?blood for oil?, we are not only justified in going to war ? we were obligated to do it - and to do it in every place on this earth that ever poses a threat to the American way of life. It isn't blood for oil. It's blood for freedom - the blood of our heroes. We owe it to them... and we owe it to our children. Period.

If you are not willing to do everything in your power to defend this Great Nation, even taking up arms if it is necessary, then who will? If you will not defend America, that is your choice - but sit in silence and do not criticize those brave and valiant individuals who have the sense of duty, the measure of courage and the determination of heart to protect America... and, I might add, your cowardly soul.

I hope you will take a few moments to reflect on what we have and who paid for it. Look up and thank God that you live free in a nation that is blessed by Him and defended by heroes.

Romans 5:8,9

May God continue to bless America and all who defend her.

Fly the flag.


Through phrases like "blood for oil" it is clear that the author is not only using the emotional appeal in a call to general militarism but specifically making a case for the war in Iraq.

These arguments are idiotic, and I feel the same way about them as I do when I criticized liberal and conservative debate by way of gore about Iraq.


Bashtoreth - I would be interested in knowing if you have read this post, when we come to considering what was intended in making the piece.

Hey KactusK what part this confuses you? just wondering...Tammie
0 Replies
 
bashtoreth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:50 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Xena wrote:
The clip is supposed to remind us that we need to support our troops and the reason why they are fighting.


Unless you know more about the clip than do I (and this may very well be the case) I don't believe that this is, necessarily, its intent at all.

Rather, I think it is trying to remind us of how we felt on 9/11, and imploring us not to forget those feelings and allow ourselves to, once again, become complacent, or abandon our resolve and allow the terrorists to strike again.


DINGDINGDING!!!

What he said!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:51 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
How does this

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
if we do not approve of bush and his big iraq adventure then we've forgotten 9/11, don't appreciate our military, don't care about terrorism and love the french....could you post more of an ignant, partisan cliche?


rationally follow this?

Xena wrote:
We must never forget...It seems many of us have. This is a reminder for all of us.


xena has made it obvious through its comments that the main thrust of this thread is a bush commercial.......that's how.....this is partisan period...you claim to be bright....I know you're bright enough to see that....if the post was truly just to honor the dead...the headline wouldn't have added "Some need a powerful reminder...which translates to those who don't support bush and his actions........ Stevie Wonder could see that....


She/He didn't make any partisan comments until after your quoted reply.

You leaped to a conclusion and jumped to an attack mode. As Occum Bill has suggested, a preemptive strike.
0 Replies
 
bashtoreth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:52 pm
Einherjar wrote:
Magus wrote:
"ASK"ing... what are the motives behind your choice of avatar, bashtoreth?
A snubnosed pistol being pointed by a clenched fist with crimson-painted fingernails...?

Images and icons are symbols, conveying meaning... so I ask: what is the meaning/message you intend to convey?

On the surface, it appears to be a message of aggression and hostility... whatever your intent.


Are we phsycoanalysing peoples avatars now? Maybe I'll have a go as well, I think Craven's avatar indicates that he is a flip-flopper.


Yes, the aggression implication was supposed to be there... As for the painted finger nails... I really want to be a woman?...
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:52 pm
Lash wrote:
Incredulous at the venom and threats directed at this member over the clip.

What now? Evoking 911 is immediately attacked? If youre not "one who has forgotten" or "one who needs a reminder", you shouldn't have taken any offense to this at all--except the footage of a woman falling from the building is just about the worst taste I've ever seen, and I'd like to slap the face of the person who made that editorial choice. (Because IT WAS ACTUALLY SOMEONE'S DAUGHTER.)

Anyway, I think it is quite a curiosity about those who were so inflamed by this particular clip. Do you now see 911 as nothing more than a Republican commercial? If so, check yourself.


Amen
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:56 pm
dlowan wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
How does this

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
if we do not approve of bush and his big iraq adventure then we've forgotten 9/11, don't appreciate our military, don't care about terrorism and love the french....could you post more of an ignant, partisan cliche?


rationally follow this?

Xena wrote:
We must never forget...It seems many of us have. This is a reminder for all of us.


Hmmm - simple answer, Finn - have you WATCHED the mindnumbing, atavistic thing - which, with its carefully calculated appeals to the most dangerous to civilization of our primitive emotions and intent to de-activate thought, reminds me, frankly, of things like Triumph of the Will.

Or - though I have not seen much of it, doubtless to the kind of equally mindnumbing and primitive emotion-frenzying agitprop fed to those training to be soldiers of rabid Islamism.

Propaganda designed to make us intoxicated with self-righteous anger and nameless dread is a toxic poison to the world. And one we ought to have learned the dangers of by now.


Whether or not it appeals to base emotions, there is nothing about it, on its face, that supports the specific conclusions reached by bipo.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:06 am
dlowan wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Oh god! Not that thing again.

I do remember, and I find that drivel an absolute insult both to me and to the people who died.


I find this reaction puzzling.

In what way is the message stupid or senseless?

Why do you feel insulted by it, and more importantly why do you think it insults the people who died?


I feel insulted, Finn, because I find it devastatingly irking that the likes of the people who made that thing, and, it seems, Xena, think that unless one is baying for revenge and supporting the war in Iraq then one is a stupid, unfeeling ostrich.

I watched those awful events, as so many did, and I actually still cannot think of it without becoming tearful. I very much want to return to New York ( a city I love) to spend some time thinking of those people where so many of them died.

At the same time, I was thinking of all the other victims of terror in the world - including those who were victims of American and other western nations sponsored terror, and a part of me was torn, because I knew that THESE (9/11) victims would have a status and importance denied to so many others, who also died horrifically far from the media spotlight - and from our thoughts or regard, here in our rich countries.

The thing I feared most was a visceral, unexamined American response - and I was cheered that such did not seem to be forthcoming.

You see, we are, are we not, a primitive species, much given to being driven by our most basic urges, with but a veneer of rationality and civilisation? It is SO easy, it seems, for us to be manipulated either by our natural reactions, or by the carefully researched strings of mass manipulation - and for us to dress up these basic urges in the language of "defending freedom", or "fighting for the one true god", or "avenging the fallen" or "the stab in the back" or "the dictatorship of the proletariat".

I therefore enormously value clear and complex thought about the issues facing us. (Though I by no means always achieve it myself!)

The piece we are all discussing is, I believe, made to eclipse thought and encourage the very mindless emotionalism I most fear - in all countries and groups - and which we can see operating all the time.

I find that using the very real suffering and horror experienced by all killed, injured, or bereaved in 9/11 as a mawkish call to abandon thought and genuine emotion and engage in a self-indulgent emotional trip to be appalling.

As is the notion that, if we refuse to do so,we are stupid, unfeeling dolts, who would not lift a finger to defend ourselves, or our country, when this is really required.

Actually, I found the end bit, which calls us to remember the sacrifices of those who died defending our liberties, and live in a way that makes their sacrifice meaningful, the best part. For me, this includes using my brain and refusing to be sucked into the sort of emotive propaganda morasses that allow our governments to do terrible things, or us to become involved in unspeakable acts of murder because we think we are threatened and are defending ourselves against the damn infidel, or whatever group has been demonized. It is a moveable feast, is it not, this demonization?


Thanks for that rational explanation of your position. I don't agree that the purpose of the clip is, necessarily, to incite others to violence or the support of violence, but I understand where you are coming from.
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:09 am
Xena wrote:
The clip is supposed to remind us that we need to support our troops and the reason why they are fighting.

Some people disagree whether or not Iraq is part of the war on terror. I don't seperate the two. It is the hight of hypocracy for the Dems to say Bush lied or he mislead us into it because for years before Bush came into office they were warning us of the threat Saddam was. Using Iraq for their political purposes is disgusting to me.

. They can call Bush the worst of names and are upset when you say anything bad about Kerry. The Swiftvets are called liars, when they idolize Michael Moore.


.
Hey Finn, what part of xena's motivation am i missing? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:32 am
willow_tl wrote:
bashtoreth wrote:

saw the filth behind the rhetoric? i'm confused... I have mentioned before in this thread that I do not support the war or President Bush generally. So if i was moved in the way the creator intended, where am I on your spectrum? Do I belong to the group that spouts the rhetoric? Or have I been befuddled? I have an idea for you: Instead of assuming someone's motives....ASK! Acting on emotions that you created as a kneejerk reaction to something that the original poster never mentioned is just...sad.

sorry love, i forgot to quote the person that i was responding to. And if you read further the letter that the original poster posted..i think you will see my kneejerk reaction was a gut feeling that has since been validated to my satisfaction... :wink:


And that person was?
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:46 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
willow_tl wrote:
bashtoreth wrote:

saw the filth behind the rhetoric? i'm confused... I have mentioned before in this thread that I do not support the war or President Bush generally. So if i was moved in the way the creator intended, where am I on your spectrum? Do I belong to the group that spouts the rhetoric? Or have I been befuddled? I have an idea for you: Instead of assuming someone's motives....ASK! Acting on emotions that you created as a kneejerk reaction to something that the original poster never mentioned is just...sad.

sorry love, i forgot to quote the person that i was responding to. And if you read further the letter that the original poster posted..i think you will see my kneejerk reaction was a gut feeling that has since been validated to my satisfaction... :wink:


And that person was?


KacktusK on page 11..but don't know how to bring their quote into it once i have written my response...
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:46 am
Okay Willow, I've read the entire thread now, but you probably won't like my conclusions: You, my dear, behaved badly and, IMHO, now owe Xena an apology... because you went off like a nut. If this were the only thread I'd seen you on, I would probably just assume you are a nut. Certainly Xena's no further right on this thread than you are left. Why not make nice, eh? :wink:

KactusK I'd like to offer a warm welcome to A2K! We can never have too much reason here. Smile Stick around... you'll learn to love it here.
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:54 am
edited to empty since i'm a dufus with computers and repeated the post 3x
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:56 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Okay Willow, I've read the entire thread now, but you probably won't like my conclusions: You, my dear, behaved badly and, IMHO, now owe Xena an apology... because you went off like a nut. If this were the only thread I'd seen you on, I would probably just assume you are a nut. Certainly Xena's no further right on this thread than you are left. Why not make nice, eh? :wink:

If you've read my responses then you know i reacted emotionally to an emotionally charged issue..do i wish i could have handled it better and used disguised insults that i see in other threads..sure :wink: but i am not that eloquent when provoked..and i do think there was clear indication of provication... Twisted Evil Thanks for your opinion though Bill, i respect it, I just don't think you are right this time. Confused
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:00 am
edited to empty
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:02 am
willow_tl wrote:
KacktusK on page 11..but don't know how to bring their quote into it once i have written my response...


You just write: [QUOTE="INSERT NICK HERE"]INSERT QUOTE HERE[/QUOTE]

Which results in:
INSERT NICK HERE wrote:
INSERT QUOTE HERE
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:04 am
sorry all about the 3 posts this computer stuff is hard for me...kept saying 504 error so i thought it wasn't posting...my bad..then when i went to delete it said i couldn't delete a post that had been responded to...again my bad...
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:06 am
willow_tl wrote:
sorry all about the 3 posts this computer stuff is hard for me...kept saying 504 error so i thought it wasn't posting...my bad..then when i went to delete it said i could delete a post that had been responded to...again my bad...


You could always edit it to empty, it's what people do when long posts doublepost.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:13 am
Fair enough, I suppose. Not sure why you felt so provoked, but neither do I need to.
Btw, when taking words out of quotes, you need to leave the [/quote] box on the end and then it will work properly. Or just type it back in like so[/quote]
To begin one, start it like this
what ever name you wish wrote:
... and then finish with the box with the /
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:17 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Fair enough, I suppose. Not sure why you felt so provoked, but neither do I need to.
Btw, when taking words out of quotes, you need to leave the
box on the end and then it will work properly. Or just type it back in like so[/quote]
To begin one, start it like this
what ever name you wish wrote:
... and then finish with the box with the /


will try to rember that bill (about the quotes) kinda sad that you feel you don't need to know why it provokes me..feel like with some people here you kind of get some background into their personalities..and learn to like them in spite of their many faults Smile
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/31/2024 at 08:20:00