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Rising fascism in the US

 
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 04:19 am
@Olivier5,
If the other guy shoots first, you get killed in real life too. It's not just a Disney movie.

I suppose someone can make an argument that there should be a policy that the police don't fire first even when the other guy is pointing a gun at them. However, I doubt that police departments in the US will agree and adopt this policy.
Lash
 
  2  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 06:10 am
I know we’ll have diverse opinions about this, but I thought it belonged here.

Try to avoid a knee-jerk reaction, read it, and let’s hear your opinion.

I do hate how women are treated in Islam. Is that Islamophobic?

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/26/us-liberal-islamophobia-rising-more-insidious?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

US liberal Islamophobia is rising – and more insidious than rightwing bigotry
Khaled A Beydoun
We must not ignore the spread of leftists who preach that Islam is inimical to liberal values

@khaledbeydoun
Sat 26 May 2018 12.00 EDT Last modified on Sat 26 May 2018 12.03 EDT

“When will Muslims step up and reform Islam?” asked the self-identified “progressive and intersectional” college student, following a presentation of my book, American Islamophobia: Understanding the Roots and Rise of Fear, at New York University.

The student wore a Black Lives Matter T-shirt and a colorful assortment of pins and patches on his camouflage backpack calling for “equality now” and claiming that “The future is female”. The young man, by way of verbal admission and the myriad of political statements he proudly wore, was a political progressive. And indeed, a representative of a swelling population of leftists who embrace progressive principles yet see Islam as inimical to liberal values and in conflict with American identity.

Let’s be clear: Muslims are neither good nor bad. We’re just human | Farah Elahi

The left is saturated with pundits and self-styled public intellectuals who disseminate discourses that Islam is monolithic; that Muslims must choose between liberal principles and their faith, and, echoing the college student I encountered at in March, a religion that is in need of “reform”.

A diverse and eclectic litany of prominent Islamophobes occupies the left. These liberal Islamophobes, like Bill Maher and Sam Harris, weaponize atheism as an ideology that not only discredits the spiritual dimensions of Islam but also demonizes it in line with longstanding orientalist, political terms. For these new atheists, Islam is illegitimate because it is a religion, but unlike other religions, is distinctly threatening because it is inherently at odds with liberal values.

Echoing Samuel P Huntington and the intellectual father of modern Islamophobia, Bernard Lewis, Harris writes: “While the other major world religions have been fertile sources of intolerance, it is clear that the doctrine of Islam poses unique problems for the emergence of a global civilization.”
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 06:31 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

I do hate how women are treated in Islam. Is that Islamophobic?


Most of it is more to do with Arab culture than Islam itself. People forget that before the prophet came to power women were little different from cattle. He made immense changes, unfortunately a lot of people think that was the end, not the beginning.

Islam is a lot younger than Christianity, when Christianity was the same age as Islam we had the Spanish Inquisition and burning witches at the stake.

And a lot of Muslim women embrace the burkha.

Most Muslims are more like Mr Khan than Bin Laden.

Lash
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 06:42 am
@izzythepush,
The only sticking point I have with what you said is most women embrace the burkha.

Reminds me of Stockholm Syndrome. They may believe that they are making the choice to cover, but it is always a strong underlying pressure to please daddy or husband or the Muslim society. Think about what the woman is saying.

My body is dirty. It is sinful, and I owe it to men to cover it so they don’t sin because of me. I must be covered, hidden from sight, rather than the man should keep his hands to himself and his dick in his pants.

I get pretty angry about this horrific, sexist mindset. Won’t belabor FGM, but the practice is far too widespread within Islam, and I think that the Grand Poobahs of Islam should speak out against it.

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 06:47 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Islam is a lot younger than Christianity, when Christianity was the same age as Islam ...
That's something I always point at, too.
However, we live in a different time now, though for instances, managers still think, they could deal with females like 100 and more years ago: Here’s Why British Firms Say Their Boards Lack Women. Prepare to Cringe. / Revealed: The worst explanations for not appointing women to FTSE company boards

I could imagine that women's organisations such as Concerned Women for America and the Independent Women's Forum share some points ...
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 06:53 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The thing that bugs me about your comparison is that it seems to negate what’s actually happening now within the Islamic religion.

I agree, of course, that all religions have their failures, but that’s no reason to give any religion a mulligan.

We shouldn’t shy from analyzing Islam.

But, not trying to be aggressive.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:04 am
@Lash,
I think, we shouldn't be shy from analysing any religion - I had done that more than 50 years ago in religion classes at school ('Religion' was one of my two oral examinations in the Abitur)
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:08 am
@Lash,
Agreed on FGM, but it's not an Islamic problem it's an African problem. It seems people are too eager to blame Islam for practices they disapprove of.

I used to live two doors down from a Muslim couple. I first met them when she came knocking on my door wanting to talk about the neighbour in between us who was quite anti social. I saw her a lot, we exchanged mobile numbers and kept in contact. The only time I ever saw him was when he returned a ladder I'd lent her. He was very meek, and it was clear who was in charge in that relationship.

I think they're far more typical of modern British Muslims than those in horror stories put out by the far right.
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:11 am
@izzythepush,
Of course, I’ve heard anecdotes about nice Muslim families that don’t fit the profile of oppressed women and girls.

The bottom line for me is: why is a girl/woman willing to go through her life covered from the world? What were they told, what do they have to believe to accept that sad, humiliating fate?

That is my primary argument with Islam.
revelette1
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:28 am
@Lash,
The same reason many Christian women wear a scarf or hat on their heads during prayer. Perhaps the same reason the Pope and other Catholic preachers (in their ranks) wear what they wear. The same reason some Jewish men wear what they wear on their heads.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:28 am
@Lash,
Some, from liberal families, who are fully aware of what life is like over here, choose to wear it. Their reasons tend to be that they no longer have to conform to society's standards of beauty, spend money on fashion, make up etc. Some of them find it very liberating.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:30 am
@revelette1,
No, it’s not the same reason.

They are to be covered always when outside.

Check your Koran and give the specific reason they agree to do this.
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:36 am
Excerpt:

Muslim religious writings are not entirely clear on the question of women veiling. Various statements in the and the (statements attributed to the prophet Mohammed) make reference to Mohammed’s wives veiling, but it is debatable whether these statements apply only to the Prophet’s wives or to all Muslim women.

While the need for women to be modest is mentioned, the area women must cover depends on the source and ranges from “the bosom” to the whole body except the face and hands. The veil is a vehicle for distinguishing between women and men and a means of controlling male sexual desire....Muslim men are also urged to be modest and to cover themselves between the waist and the knees....[In some Islamic societies] an immodest woman brings dishonor not only on herself but also on her male family members....The veil itself, however, predated Islam and was practiced by women of several religions. It also was largely linked to class position: Wealthy women could afford to veil their bodies completely, whereas poor women who had to work [in the field] either modified their veils or did not wear them at all.
https://www.facinghistory.org/civic-dilemmas/brief-history-veil-islam

This is not an attack on people. It is a strong disagreement with oppressive rules against women and girls.

It’s based on rank sexism.
revelette1
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:43 am
@Lash,
It is the same reason, it is their religious belief. A Christian woman wears a covering on her head for the same reason.

King James Bible
1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

That is just about clothes, if you read further in the NT Epistles, you will see how women are supposed to submit to their husbands and be silent in church and the reason going all the way back to Eve.

As for what the Quran says about women and their dress:

The Dress Code in the Quran for Women

Edit:

Actually on further reading from this source, I am not sure Muslim women wear a hijab is from the Quran.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 07:53 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
No, it’s not the same reason.
In theory they are very similar - only some see it differently: a nun, for instance, signifies her piety, modesty, humility, renunciation of the earthly pleasures and that she is married to God with her outfit. The head covering of a Muslim woman signifies her piety, modesty, humility, her rejection of immodest fashions, and her commitment to and submission to God.

The reason is exactly the same. How others look at it is totally different.

As an aside: in the 12th century, abbess Hildegard von Bingen, advocated a style for her nuns that included extravagant and lavish white silk habits worn with golden head pieces designed to present the nun to Christ in her most beautiful form. Today, many nuns are laughed at, insulted, mocked due to their habit: turban, headscarf, caftan or habit - it makes no difference.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 08:05 am
@Lash,
You seem to be deliberately trying to reduce this to very simplistic terms, Islam's treatment of women is bad, therefore Islam is bad, therefore it's right to attack Islam as a 'liberal.'

That's not that different from what fascist hate mongers like Coldjoint are saying. As you know the truth is never simplistic, it's a lot more complicated.

Both Islam, (and the veil) are very complicated, and I'm sure those aspects of which you disapprove are shared by most Muslims. Leave the simplistic thinking to the simpletons.

Lash wrote:

Of course, I’ve heard anecdotes about nice Muslim families that don’t fit the profile of oppressed women and girls.


Have you met any? It may be an anecdote to you, but it's life for me. Maybe if you met some Muslims you might not quite so willing to condemn.
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 08:06 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Women cover to protect men from sinning.

It is spelled out in all this religious gobblety-gook if you read it, but couched in contemporary apologia, re-framed as ‘freedom.’ That’s a joke. The head coverings during prayer in other religions is also a showing of subservience—from the wearer of covering to God. Not much better but st least those coverings aren’t extensive, they don’t cover so much of the body, and you can take them off in public.

If men wore the same coverings, it wouldn’t be an issue for me.

They don’t.

Sexism.
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 08:08 am
@izzythepush,
Yes, I’ve taught lovely Muslim girls who had to hide their hair and various parts of their bodies. Muslim boys could wear what they liked. It’s demeaning to women.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 08:11 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

This is not an attack on people. It is a strong disagreement with oppressive rules against women and girls.

It’s based on rank sexism.



How many women have been elected to the position of POTUS. You find that plenty of Muslim counties are not as sexist as the USA, they have or have had female heads of state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Muslim_heads_of_Government_and_State
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 2 Jun, 2018 08:23 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
The head coverings during prayer in other religions is also a showing of subservience—from the wearer of covering to God. Not much better but st least those coverings aren’t extensive, they don’t cover so much of the body, and you can take them off in public.

If men wore the same coverings, it wouldn’t be an issue for me.

They don’t.

Sexism
It may be sexism in our today's view, but although the history of the habits of monk and nun orders isn't so complicated, the one-word answer "sexism" doesn't really answer it. (And 'no': most can't take them off in public.)

When I see women with scarfs here in town (70,000 inhabitants) they are Free Church Baptists (originally from Russia).
0 Replies
 
 

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