29
   

Rising fascism in the US

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 01:58 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You keep saying you love irony but you don't get it. Nobody plays the victim as much as you. You do little else.


I don't see myself as a victim Izzy. I give as good as I get.

Able2know provides a pretty fair platform, everyone can express and defend their opinions freely (for the most part). We are all here voluntarily. If anyone feels victimized here... they are fools.


maxdancona
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 02:16 am
Here is the real issue; you don't fight Nazi's by smashing windows, intimidating people with physical violence, taking away people's livelihoods and silencing critics. That is exactly what the far-left is doing, and it is a little ridiculous.

The way you fight Nazi's is by building an open society with a strong democracy. You support Free Speech even when it offends you and you respond with a clear message in an open debate. This means you let people you disagree with have a voice.

I am working to pass the Safe Communities Act in Massachusetts (I personally lobby my representatives, and have worked in the community). This is pro-immigrant legislation that will allow refugees and undocumented immigrants to live in our communities without fearing local law enforcement. I am proud of this, and this is something that will make my community stronger and reflect my values.

Working to make society better as part of the democratic process is constructive; talking, lobbying, organizing really help. Yelling down people with whom you disagree is not.





izzythepush
 
  0  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 02:47 am
@maxdancona,
Up all night arguing with people on the internet, it's clear why you don't get irony.

Quote:
Walker has spent the last four and a half years writing Why We Sleep, a complex but urgent book that examines the effects of this epidemic close up, the idea being that once people know of the powerful links between sleep loss and, among other things, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity and poor mental health, they will try harder to get the recommended eight hours a night (sleep deprivation, amazing as this may sound to Donald Trump types, constitutes anything less than seven hours).


https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/24/why-lack-of-sleep-health-worst-enemy-matthew-walker-why-we-sleep

Get some sleep, then you can try to get a life.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 02:48 am
@maxdancona,
You don't fight Nazis.

Btw, learn to use the bloody apostrophe properly.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 02:56 am
@izzythepush,
Good morning, Izzy. I just woke up, but thank you for your concern about my well being and my grammar Wink. I didn't know you were such a grammar Nazi.

I love you too.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 02:59 am
@maxdancona,
It's not your grammar, it's your punctuation.

You just concentrate on morphing into Neville Chamberlain.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:05 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You don't fight Nazis.


Actually Izzy. I do fight Nazi's (apostrophe maintained to make a point).

Working to pass legislation to support and protect immigrants and refugees is the productive way to fight Nazi's. Smashing windows and intimidating people is not productive.

I do not accept that violence and intimidation is the way to fight Nazis.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:08 am
@maxdancona,
What point are you making, that you don't fight Nazis, you fight something that belongs to them, their pencils maybe, or more likely their victims.

You make excuses for Nazis and direct all your energy towards criticising those who do fight them. If you knew anything about History you'd realise appeasement doesn't work.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:09 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You just concentrate on morphing into Neville Chamberlain.


And you are morphing into Joseph Stalin. The far left is capable of brutality and repression particularly when it accepts violence and intimidation as valid tools and suppresses free speech.


0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:09 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Here is the real issue; you don't fight Nazi's by smashing windows, intimidating people with physical violence, taking away people's livelihoods and silencing critics. That is exactly what the far-left is doing, and it is a little ridiculous.

The way you fight Nazi's is by building an open society with a strong democracy. You support Free Speech even when it offends you and you respond with a clear message in an open debate. This means you let people you disagree with have a voice.

I am working to pass the Safe Communities Act in Massachusetts (I personally lobby my representatives, and have worked in the community). This is pro-immigrant legislation that will allow refugees and undocumented immigrants to live in our communities without fearing local law enforcement. I am proud of
this, and this is something that will make my community stronger and reflect my values.

Working to make society better as part of the democratic process is constructive; talking, lobbying, organizing really help. Yelling down people with whom you disagree is not.


Yippee!!! Kudos to you!! I think this is awesome. Thanks for your dedication to this issue--and I agree completely with your opinion on free speech.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:12 am
@izzythepush,
No. I am not making excuses for Nazi's. I am saying that everyone has free speech, and then I am working to oppose them in a democratic way. You can't give up freedom to save freedom.

I am saying that violence and intimidation are not valid tools in a democratic society even if you are fighting Nazi's or witches or communists or anarchists. This doesn't mean that I am a Nazi, or a witch.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:27 am
People who fight fascists get memorials.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Battle-of-Cable-Street-red-plaque.png/220px-Battle-of-Cable-Street-red-plaque.png
The only memorial to Neville Chamberlain is his gravestone.

http://westminster-abbey.org/__data/assets/thumbnail/0009/85752/Chamberlain,-Neville,-grave-72-Westminster-Abbey-copyright-photo.jpg
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:31 am
You don't support free speech, you support protecting hate speech. Then you get hysterical when the consequences of supporting hate speech are pointed out.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:35 am
@izzythepush,
That's true Izzy. There are quite a few Memorials to Josef Stalin.

(I don't think think that is a good thing...)

maxdancona
 
  3  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:39 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You don't support free speech, you support protecting hate speech.


You can't support free speech without supporting the protecting of hate speech. Once the government starts deciding which speech is protected, and which is not, it is no longer free speech.

Speech that isn't offensive doesn't need protecting. You are making Free Speech into something meaningless.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:42 am
@maxdancona,
That's your attitude in a nutshell, anti fascists are all like Joseph Stalin, and the Nazis are good ol' boys defending American values like free speech.

Btw, lots of Stalin memorials have fallen, but the plaque commemorating the heroes of Cable Street stands.

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hGS3QVqjTK0/UP9C6nXL82I/AAAAAAACDHU/7caQtCpaTww/s900/aa36.jpg
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:47 am
@maxdancona,
Like ******* Charlie Hebdo. You take slings and arrows, standing up for their right to say their piece. Ugh.

Max, some people just legit don't get it.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 03:57 am
@Lash,
Charlie Hebdo didn't stand up for people's right to say their piece. It deliberately attacked and insulted minorities.

Will self put it best.
Quote:

Let me be clear: the people responsible for murdering the journalists at the offices of Charlie Hebdo on January 7th were the men who pulled the triggers of the Kalashnikovs aimed at them. Moreover, we've no need to reach into our grab-bag of ethical epithets in order to find one that fits these men's characters; we don't need to speak of "barbarism", or a "complete lack of civilised values", or agonise about how they became radicalised – because we know the answer already – but what we can unequivocally assert is that these men, in those rattling, coughing, cordite-stinking moments, were evil. If by evil is understood this: an egotism that grew like a cancer – a lust for status and power and "significance" which metastasised through these murderers' brains. The problem for the staunch defenders of Western values is that each and every one of us possesses this capacity for evil – it's implicit in having an ego at all; so when the demonstrators stood in the Place de la Republique holding placards that read "JE SUIS CHARLIE", they might just as well have held ones reading: "NOUS SOMMES LES TERRORISTES".

The French political thinker Alexis de Tocqueville observed that the law exists to restrain our worst impulses, not encourage our best. Those politicians, religious leaders and commentators that in the hours and days since this atrocity have spoken about freedom of speech as a sine qua non of that liberty which is in turn essential for civilisation, would've done well to remember both this and their own history: the birth of the French republic was attended by justice – blindfolded and wearing earplugs: it was called the Terror. When the sans-culottes stormed the Bastille they found a handful of prisoners in the ancient bastion, among them the Marquis de Sade, who soon enough found himself elevated to the position of revolutionary judge, despatching aristos and other reactionaries to the guillotine. It was a nice example of liberation – if by that is meant the freedom to murder for political ends.

The idea that the French secularists have of their political system (and for that matter the British secularists of theirs, the Americans ones of theirs, and so on), is that it not only encourages their best impulses, but that if it's perfected it will render the entire population supremely free and entirely good. This is a process that both right and left seem to feel is unstoppable – whether powered by some sort of moral "natural selection", or historical determinism. For these boosters the Enlightenment project of perfecting man's moral nature is still underway, and will only end when a (godless) heaven has been established on earth. But such rarefied progress is precisely what is mocked, not only by the murdering of Parisian journalists, but by the drone strikes in Syria, Iraq and Waziristan, which are also murders conducted for religio-political ends. It is mocked as well by the clamouring that follows every terrorist outrage for the suspension of precisely those aspects of the law that exist to restrain our worst impulses; in particular the worst impulses of our rulers: namely, due process of law, fair trials, habeas corpus and freedom from state-mandated torture and extra-judicial killing.

The memorial issue of Charlie Hebdo will have a print run of 1,000,000 copies, financed by the French government; so, now the satirists have been co-opted by the state, precisely the institution you might've thought they should never cease from attacking. But the question needs to be asked: were the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo really satirists, if by satire is meant the deployment of humour, ridicule, sarcasm and irony in order to achieve moral reform? Well, when the issue came up of the Danish cartoons I observed that the test I apply to something to see whether it truly is satire derives from HL Mencken's definition of good journalism: it should "afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted". The trouble with a lot of so-called "satire" directed against religiously-motivated extremists is that it's not clear who it's afflicting, or who it's comforting.

The last cartoon drawn by Charb, Charlie Hebdo's editor, featured a crude pictogram of a jihadist wearing a hat called a pakol – this would mark the fighter out as an Afghan, and therefore as unlikely to be involved in terrorist attacks in the West. Charb's caption flies in the face of this: above the Afghan jihadist it reads: "Still no attacks in France", while the speech bubble coming from his mouth reads: "Wait, there's until the end of January to give gifts."

Setting to one side the premonitory character of this cartoon, and the strangeness of a magazine editor who was prepared to die for his convictions (or so Charb said after the Charlie Hebdo offices were firebombed in 2011), yet not to get the basic facts about his targets correct, is it right to think of it as satire? Whatever else we may believe about people so overwhelmed by their evil nature that they're prepared to deprive others of their lives for the sake of a delusory set of ideas, the one thing we can be certain of is that they're not comfortable; moreover, while Charb's cartoon may've provoked a wry smile from Charlie Hebdo's readers, it's not clear to me that these people are the "afflicted" who, in HL Mencken's definition, require "comforting" – unless their "affliction" is the very fact of a substantial Muslim population in France, and their "comfort" consists in inking-in all these fellow citizens with a terroristic brush.

This is in no way to condone the shooting of Charb and the other journalists – an act that, as I pointed out initially, is evil, pure and simple, but our society makes a fetish of "the right to free speech" without ever questioning what sort of responsibilities are implied by this right. But then it also makes a fetish of "freedom" conceived of as agency worthy of a Nietzschean Ubermensch – whereas the truth of the matter is, as most of us understand only too well, we are in fact grossly constrained in most of what we do, most of the time – and a major part of what constrains us are our murderous, animal instincts.


https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/kwpvax/will-self-charlie-hebdo-attack-the-west-satire-france-terror-105<br />
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 04:10 am
@izzythepush,
I know, but many people who disagree with Hebdo's specific comments/cartoons support their ability to speech/expression.

I hate half the **** they say.

That's the point.
farmerman
 
  2  
Mon 25 Sep, 2017 04:17 am
Despite our frequent terrorist events, I still feel that the best way to deal with hate speech is to have more free speech.

Even our president realized this weekend that if he would better understand our Constitutional rights he cant control speech like many Asian countries.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 04/26/2024 at 01:10:14