ebrown_p
Sure it may sound good but neither side will go for it. There would still be those who see only one solution the elimination of the Jewish State and others on the Israeli side that will not be willing to dismantle all of the settlements on the West bank. In addition there is little trust on either side. It is close to impossible to negotiate when trust is non existant. In addition until the PA has a stable government and is in control who is there to negotiate with. Arafat, Hamas, Hizbollah who?
Regarding withdrawal something puzzles me. Sharon has promised to withdraw from Gaza I believe troops, settlements and all. And yet that seems to satisfy no one. Can anyone clarify the situation in Gaza?
I think that part of the problem is that it is a 'promise' but the other part of the problem is that some people believe that he would only withdraw from Gaza in order to take more out of the West Bank. This seems to be supported.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-womide183934156aug18,0,6766420.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines
Au,
I agree that trust is a problem, but it is not an insurmountable problem. If a large majority of people from each side signed on the extremists would not be able to disrupt the process.
There is absolutely no risk to existance the State of Israel. No one seriously believes now that the State of Israel will ever cease to exist, and there are not many who want this outcome (yes you will find some, but not many.) But the State of Israel is gauranteed even if she gives up the West Bank. The US would not allow this outcome and neither would Europe.
There is some risk that giving up the West Bank makes Israel more vulnerable to terrorism.
But, I don't think this risk is real. A sovereign state can be held accountable. Furthermore if the Palestininans have self-determination with a viable economy, they will have something to work for and something to lose.
The absolute worse situation is a people with absolutely nothing to lose. This is the best breeding ground for hatred, fanaticism and people willing to commit suicide. That is what Palestine is today and I would argue the risk now is greater than any risk that a Palestinian state would pose.
On the other side, giving up the Right of Return is very hard for the Palestinians who feel that this is the core of their claim of injustice. Right of Return is a fundamental part of international law.
However, I believe that this perceived injustice is worth the achievement of a Palestinian State. I also believe that most Palestians would agree.
You are right that people on both sides are opposing this plan. Maybe that is a good sign that this is the middle ground that can be reached to achieve peace.
Extremists will keep yelling about justice and threats. But the problem is that the extremists have too much voice in the region right now.
Maybe the process would be best started with my latest modest proposal.
Let's bomb the hell out of the Israeli extremists and let's drive the Palestinian extremists into the sea.
Then the rest of the people who want peace can truly make the desert bloom.
... to answer your question about who to negotiate with...
The Israeli Peace movement found quite a few Palestinians to negotiate with. If the Israeli government wanted peace, they would as well.
Sharon and Arafat are really the same person. They are tired blind old men locked in a bitter 40 year old dance to the music of hatred and propaganda.
The sooner both of them leave, the better. The only problem is how to get the reasonable people on both sides into power (without having them get shot).
ebrown_p wrote:I just realized that this whole conversation is kind of inane. All these arguments over history don't justify the brutal acts of both the Palestinians and Israel toward each other.
We should be talking about how to solve the problem in a way that doesn't involve driving Israel into the sea, or kicking the Palestinians into other countries (or as swolf suggests exterminating them).
It bears repeating, I have NOT suggested exterminating the palis; what I HAVE said is that most nations WOULD have exterminated them, given their conduct. It's not the same thing.
My own suggestion would be to force the muslim world to find a place for them, minimally 500 miles from Israel. No reasonable person could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this point.
au1929 wrote:ebrown_p
Sure it may sound good but neither side will go for it. There would still be those who see only one solution the elimination of the Jewish State and others on the Israeli side that will not be willing to dismantle all of the settlements on the West bank. In addition there is little trust on either side. It is close to impossible to negotiate when trust is non existant. In addition until the PA has a stable government and is in control who is there to negotiate with. Arafat, Hamas, Hizbollah who?
Regarding withdrawal something puzzles me. Sharon has promised to withdraw from Gaza I believe troops, settlements and all. And yet that seems to satisfy no one. Can anyone clarify the situation in Gaza?
Simple:
Gaza is a natural hellhole where nobody should be living, period. It's like wanting to live in Death Valley.
ebrown_p wrote:... to answer your question about who to negotiate with...
The Israeli Peace movement found quite a few Palestinians to negotiate with. If the Israeli government wanted peace, they would as well.
Sharon and Arafat are really the same person. They are tired blind old men locked in a bitter 40 year old dance to the music of hatred and propaganda.
The sooner both of them leave, the better. The only problem is how to get the reasonable people on both sides into power (without having them get shot).
This is amazingly accurate and very eloquent. I always thought that if Shimon Perez were leading Israel and Saeb Erakat were leading the PA, there would be hope for peace.
swolf wrote:My own suggestion would be to force the muslim world to find a place for them, minimally 500 miles from Israel. No reasonable person could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this point.
So you're in favor of denying basic human rights? If you say so ...
Rick d'Israeli wrote:swolf wrote:My own suggestion would be to force the muslim world to find a place for them, minimally 500 miles from Israel. No reasonable person could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this point.
So you're in favor of denying basic human rights? If you say so ...
There's no "basic human right" to perpetrate suicide massacres using bombs laced with shrapnel and rat poison in hopes of eliminating an established nation. You're living in a dream world.
swolf wrote:Rick d'Israeli wrote:swolf wrote:My own suggestion would be to force the muslim world to find a place for them, minimally 500 miles from Israel. No reasonable person could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this point.
So you're in favor of denying basic human rights? If you say so ...
There's no "basic human right" to perpetrate suicide massacres using bombs laced with shrapnel and rat poison in hopes of eliminating an established nation. You're living in a dream world.
So then you must be saying that the entire Palestinian population is guilty of these acts and must be banished?
FD, do you have a special mirrior that tells you which Palestinian is or will be a suicide bomber?
McGentrix wrote:FD, do you have a special mirrior that tells you which Palestinian is or will be a suicide bomber?
Well, I do have a mirror and when I look into it, I see myself, and I am not a terrorist. If you mean a crystal ball or something, that's another matter. Do you have a way of telling which exmilitary men will become murderers when they return home? Just thought I'd throw another equally irrelevant question out there.
McGentrix wrote:FD, do you have a special mirrior that tells you which Palestinian is or will be a suicide bomber?
I have no mirror that would tell me that you are not a serial killer.
In a civilized society we have to deal with this risk. You will remain out of prison until we can show you commited a crime. Taking away your rights simply because I think you look like a serial killer is barbaric.
Hmmm...let me check something........
Yep, I was right. Neither Palestine nor Israel are part of the United States of America and they are not subject to our laws. Apparently they have their own governments and they make their own laws. Imagine that.
swolf wrote:Rick d'Israeli wrote:swolf wrote: My own suggestion would be to force the muslim world to find a place for them, minimally 500 miles from Israel. No reasonable person could ask the Israelis to accept them as neighbors at this point.
So you're in favor of denying basic human rights? If you say so ...
There's no "basic human right" to perpetrate suicide massacres using bombs laced with shrapnel and rat poison in hopes of eliminating an established nation. You're living in a dream world.
A dream world you say? The point is that - in order to prevent any suicidebombers - you think it is a solution to deport all Palestinians from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. That is denying human rights. Do you think every Palestinian is a suicidebomber? Do you believe all of the Palestinians have to pay for the actions of these nutjobs? And you claim that
I live in a dream world? ...
Brown.
Quote:
In a civilized society we have to deal with this risk. You will remain out of prison until we can show you committed a crime. Taking away your rights simply because I think you look like a serial killer is barbaric.
Try telling that to the brother, sister, mother or father of someone blown up in a terrorist bombing in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Or gunned down in their own home. Call it racial profiling or what ever else you will but were I an Israeli I would keep those borders closed till hell froze over. Or at least till a real peace has evolved. In addition I would build a fence as high and as impenetrable as possible.
As to the question regarding how you would tell a terrorist from a peaceful Palestinian. I would say a peaceful Palestinian is one that was kept out of Israel.
McGentrix wrote:FD, do you have a special mirrior that tells you which Palestinian is or will be a suicide bomber?
So you support the "solution" of swolf that, because we can not tell which ones of the Palestinians are suicidebombers, it would be the best just to get rid of them all by deporting them from the Palestinian Territories (like swolf said)?
au1929 wrote:Call it racial profiling or what ever else you will but were I an Israeli I would keep those borders closed till hell froze over.
The point to which ebrown_p seemed to be referring to the fact swolf believes that the best solution in this conflict is by deporting the Palestinians from the Palestinian Territory.
Well you're entitled to your opinion swolf, but just think about it for a moment what you're saying. Dangerous rhetoric.
