Israeli firm bids on European wall to keep immigrants out...

Brown
Ignore him and his idiotic ranting.

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au1929 wrote:

Freeduck
That is easy get control in their territory. As long as the terrorist organizations are free to operate there can be no negotiations and no peace. Let us not forget the fence, the dreaded fence is a direct result of the terrorism. And in addition is the cause of the unemployment in the Palestinian areas.

I wish it were so easy. There is virtually no Palestinian authority infrastructure left in place. Granted Arafat is worthless, but honestly how can the PA dismantle terrorism when, at this point they have nothing else to offer. They can't protect their own people. It's a bit like sticking my foot on your neck and telling you that I'll take my foot off as soon as you start breathing. I think killing of civilians is vile no matter who does it, I just have a hard time condemning a shellshocked population that practically lives in rubble for not turning the other cheek.

The Israeli's have the power to stop this thing, and they can do it without a fence.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Why do you hate Americans so much?

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Given the same level of provocation, Americans would have exterminated the "palestinians" three or four years ago.

This is vicious slander against my country. We had problems in the past, but very few modern Americans support exterminating anyone.

As a nation we are opposed to genocide.

Please stop attacking my country.

History books aren't unaffordable...

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In fact, here's a fairly reasonable history lesson on the middle east for free:

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

By the way, I have no more stake or contact with Israel or zionism than I do with Serbia. The 's' in "swolf" is for Suitland as in "Suitland, Maryland", and not Serbia. I basically just hate seeing people trying to be nice guys and act reasonable and never get anything for it other than being **** on. That seems to be the case with Serbs and Israelis, even as it is with George W. Bush.

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Feeduck wrote:

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The Israeli's have the power to stop this thing, and they can do it without a fence.

Well, that's an interesting statement.
What power does Israel have to stop "this thing?"

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My question to all of you: do you oppose the current fence or the idea of the fence? (With the help of Craven de Kere, if I recall it correctly)

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I oppose fences in general as I don't believe they work. That goes for walls too.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Feeduck wrote:

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The Israeli's have the power to stop this thing, and they can do it without a fence.

Well, that's an interesting statement.
What power does Israel have to stop "this thing?"

Well, they could withdraw their troops from PA territories. They could stop demolishing palestinian homes and farms and stop settlement activity. They could accept the 1967 borders and move on. They could begin to compensate those palestinians whose homes were destroyed or taken from them. It's possible that many of them might even take that money and move to Jordan, and Jordan might even accept them if they come with resources rather than as a group of refugees. They could vote Sharon out of office since he is the one that started this intifada and he seems to have no interest in making peace.

During the 90s there was peace because there was hope for a final settlement. If Israel doesn't have the power to stop 'this thing' then do you think that the palestinian people can stop it?

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If they withdraw their troops, what is going to stop the terrorists from bringing more weapons to attack Israel? If they stop demolishing Palestinian homes, they will continue to be used to attack Israeli's. Why should they accept the 1967 borders? How is that in Israels best interest? Why should Israel compensate terrorists for attacking them? Jordan has zero interest in absorbing any Palestinians into their country. Sharon has demonstrated time and time again that he holds Israels interests sacred. There is no better leader in Israel. It is Arafat that started the intifada and it is more than obvious that HE doesn't want peace.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Moishe3rd wrote:
Feeduck wrote:

Quote:
The Israeli's have the power to stop this thing, and they can do it without a fence.

Well, that's an interesting statement.
What power does Israel have to stop "this thing?"

... They could vote Sharon out of office since he is the one that started this intifada and he seems to have no interest in making peace.

During the 90s there was peace because there was hope for a final settlement. If Israel doesn't have the power to stop 'this thing' then do you think that the palestinian people can stop it?

Sorry, "duck", but that's just ludicrous. The palis were offered something like 98% of everything they'd ever asked for with a highway connecting Gaza and the west bank thrown into the bargain and refused it. Arafart's advisers asvised him to take it and he refused, presumably because he figured he'd be killed by guys even crazier than he is if he made any deal with Israel at all, hence the intifada.

Palestinians are basically a bunch of barbarians.and their own conduct has dramatically worsened their lives over the last decade. They'll start to live better when they start to act better.

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Why should Israel do anything to further peace? It's the tango theory. You know, it takes two...
As for what's in Israel's best interest, I think and many Israeli's think that peace is in their best interest.

I could easily echo this from the terrorist perspective. If they stop blowing themselves up, nothing changes. They are still occupied and without rights and without a future. Why should they accept the existence of Israel? Why is that in their best interest? Lest anyone think that I am serious, those previous statements were for illustrative value only.

And I agree that Arafat should go too. Arafat and Sharon have been pissing on each other for decades and neither one of them wants peace. Arafat should have accepted the deal at Camp David, but he didn't. There's no way to stop the fighting unless both sides take responsibility for their actions. And while I see plenty of pressure being put on the palestinians, I don't see much being asked of Israel -- at least not by the US, who has the most clout.

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Palestinians are basically a bunch of barbarians.and their own conduct has dramatically worsened their lives over the last decade. They'll start to live better when they start to act better.

And you thought what I had to say was ludicrous? Terrorsim is the tactic of the powerless. And you might want to do some research on how this last intifada was started. In fact, you should try to find a few other sites for information other than ones that say 'Israel Friendly' on their home page.

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The Israelis appear to have solved the problem of the intifada, Duck; between the wall and having made it impossible for leaders of the terror organizations to get insurance, the intifada is pretty much dead. Moreover, that solution is as human as anything they might have contrived. Most nations would simply have exterminated the palistinians or moved them to some remote area.

Terrorism is the tactic of assholes, Duck. It totally depends upon the victim being more civilized than the perpetrator. You will look through the history books in vain for any sort of a story about anybody perpetrating terrorist acts on Chengis Khan, Tamerlane, or Joe Stalin. For that matter, people who perpetrated terrorist acts on ordinary Americans 100 years ago either got massacred or moved to reservations.

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One other little thing you might want to consider here, Duck...

If there was any one group of people in the world who you might figure had any sort of a reason to have flown jetliners into the two world trade towers, it might just be Serbs, basically an innocent nation which Slick Klintler bombed for eighty straight days and nights including Easter sunday to take the Juanita Broaddrick rape allegation off the front pages of our own newspapers.

Serbs have the reason, and they have the technological wherewithal to do something like that, but you might have noticed that you don't read about anything like that happening. That's because unlike palestinians, Serbs are not a bunch of barbarians. The basic reality is that nobody does anything like 9-11 because of any sort of cause; people do things like 9-11 because they're f**ked up. They're defective people.

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swolf wrote:

The Israelis appear to have solved the problem of the intifada, Duck; between the wall and having made it impossible for leaders of the terror organizations to get insurance, the intifada is pretty much dead. Moreover, that solution is as human as anything they might have contrived. Most nations would simply have exterminated the palistinians or moved them to some remote area.

Hah! This one made me laugh out loud. Sor terror organizations need insurance to operate? Hilarious. Why don't we cancel Osama's Blue Cross policy and be done with it? Well anyway, since the intifada is solved I guess they won't need to fire anymore rockets into apartment buildings and moving vehicles and there can be peace in Israel.

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Terrorism is the tactic of ****, Duck. It totally depends upon the victim being more civilized than the perpetrator. You will look through the history books in vain for any sort of a story about anybody perpetrating terrorist acts on Chengis Khan, Tamerlane, or Joe Stalin. For that matter, people who perpetrated terrorist acts on ordinary Americans 100 years ago either got massacred or moved to reservations.

So it's the Indian's fault we totally broke every treaty we ever had with them? I don't know what they're teaching for history in schools these days, but to call the Indians terrorists is quite a stretch.

Anyhow, since Israel has solved the problem I guess we can move on to another topic.

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Quote:

FreeDuck

Well, they could withdraw their troops from PA territories. They could stop demolishing Palestinian homes and farms and stop settlement activity. They could accept the 1967 borders and move on. They could begin to compensate those Palestinians whose homes were destroyed or taken from them. It's possible that many of them might even take that money and move to Jordan, and Jordan might even accept them if they come with resources rather than as a group of refugees. They could vote Sharon out of office since he is the one that started this intifada and he seems to have no interest in making peace.

They could also complete the job that the surrounding Arab nations have been trying to accomplish since 1948 and commit national suicide. Your suggestions and statements are pie in the sky naivety. Do the Palestinians have the power to stop the conflict and make peace? Yes, they are the only ones with that power. Why. because they keep the conflict going with the ongoing terrorism. Until that ceases there can be no negotiations and settlement. IMO their main interest is not settlement but the demise of the Jewish State.
Who started the intefada. Arafat you say. Right you are.

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Quote:

They could also complete the job that the surrounding Arab nations have been trying to accomplish since 1948 and commit national suicide. Your suggestions and statements are pie in the sky naivety. Do the Palestinians have the power to stop the conflict and make peace? Yes, they are the only ones with that power. Why. because they keep the conflict going with the ongoing terrorism. Until that ceases there can be no negotiations and settlement. IMO their main interest is not settlement but the demise of the Jewish State.

We will just have to disagree on this one. When you suggest the 'simple' thing that the palestinians can do to stop the violence I respond with a practical 'they can't'. When I suggest ways that Israel could stop the violence you call me naive. Others say 'why should they'. I think it's pretty clear who has the power in this situation. Yes Arafat is an ass, but that doesn't justify extra-judicial assassinations and land grabs.

It's hard for me to buy this 'demise of the Jewish State' argument. While I'm sure there are extremist groups who want that I think it is mostly post-holocaust paranoia and an excuse to avoid dealing with the tough question of what to do with the people who lived in Israel before it was Israel. By insisting that the palestinians stop the violence before Israel will do anything they are giving the extremists more power.

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Who started the intefada. Arafat you say. Right you are.

http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/mehistorydatabase/intifada_2000.htm

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/sintifada.html

These are two sources, at least one of them biased -- can't tell about the other. They both indicate that the intifada was touched off by Sharon's visit to the temple mount.

And now I will stop, as this thread is far enough off topic already.

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FreeDuck

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It's hard for me to buy this 'demise of the Jewish State' argument.

Suggest you come out of your cocoon. That has been and still is the Aim of the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states 4 or 5 wars should have been enough for most people to accept that fact.

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Do the Palestinians have the power to stop the conflict and make peace? Yes, they are the only ones with that power.

Bullsh*t. The Israelis have done everything they can to turn palestine into a little hell. I'm not surprised that the palestinians resort to terrorism - every year the vise gets turned a little bit tighter on them. BOTH sides will have to work to end the conflict if either wants peace, and that is going to mean concessions by Israel.

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That has been and still is the Aim of the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states 4 or 5 wars should have been enough for most people to accept that fact.

Yeah, whatever.

Cycloptichorn

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au1929 wrote:

FreeDuck

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It's hard for me to buy this 'demise of the Jewish State' argument.

Suggest you come out of your cocoon. That has been and still is the Aim of the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states 4 or 5 wars should have been enough for most people to accept that fact.

It's interesting that you lump the people in the occupied territories in with the surrounding arab states.

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Israeli firm bids on European wall to keep immigrants out...

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