Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

@izzythepush,

Hey, if someone wants to give me a hug, I'm ready. At my age there are damn few of any age or gender who are willing to do so.

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@RABEL222,

Max will give you a hug

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@joefromchicago,

You were right earlier when you pointed out that this is going to turn into another debate about moral absolutism. There is an interesting question if the ideology of feminism is possible without moral absolutism.

You probably already know the answer I will give for this (and you will likely disagree with it, as you have in previous discussions).

Western values are the correct values in a Western cultural setting. Our values are designed to function inside of our own society. The vast majority of us share roughly the same values (a very narrrow range of values compared to all of the other cultures).

Any person who was raised in a Western culture will feel very strongly that these values are the only way to do thing.

I don't think we can say any more than that.

Of course, someone raised in a non-Western culture will have equally strong beliefs about what is correct that will conflict with our beliefs.

The question is what happens when two very different cultures come into contact with each other. The people will disagree greatly, and everyone will have the same certainty that you do. How do you decide who is correct and who is wrong?

In reality, what happens if that the culture with the best guns wins. Western European culture has the best guns... and you have the ability to ignore the fact that other human beings disagree with you because your culture can impose itself on everyone else.

All I am saying that as members of the dominant culture, we should at least be honest about why we are right and everyone else is wrong.

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@maxdancona,

Joe, I get that you believe that you believe that some set of the values you believe in represent an absolute truth (rather than just being a function of the culture you were raised in).

I am wondering why you think that the set of cultural values that are held by Western European cultures are more correct than any other culture.

If it isn't doesn't have to do with where you happen to have been born and raised...

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@izzythepush,

Izzy wrote:

[A hug] is really creepy, unwanted touching, even the thought of it, is quite sickening

I love Izzy.

1 Reply

@RABEL222,

So true; there's a grey line that shifts with the observer, and the subject that's being discussed. Even liberal democrats are shifting to the right.

I agree with Mother Jones analysis of this shift of the liberals.

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@maxdancona,

I am a straight woman that abhorrs the behavior of women yet I have no desire to be a man, only respected as one. I am weird. I hate purses, and heels, and fashion and feminism...I desire being treated as an imdividual...to look like and act like someone that makes me happy. I hate being constrained by what society expects of me...I dont vote for Hillary because shes a woman but because shes a person more realistic then Sanders or (god forbid). Trump. I dont like my value being based on the size of my tits or the tightness of my ass. I hate mens rules for women, and womens rules for women even less. As for the GOP, they have sung into a long line of songs built on southern patriarchy.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

In reality, what happens if that the culture with the best guns wins.

So what? Unless you're arguing that "might makes right," it really doesn't matter whose beliefs actually prevail. Rather, the question is whose beliefs should prevail. But then I'm not surprised you didn't address that question, since moral relativists don't have a good answer for it, although, it should be noted, they at least try to answer it.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I am wondering why you think that the set of cultural values that are held by Western European cultures are more correct than any other culture.

Who said I did?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

If western values are correct, then what's the problem with imposing them on indigenous cultures?

Did I misunderstand what you were saying?

I thought you were arguing that it was OK to impose Western values on indigenous cultures. That is what we are debating here. If Western values aren't more correct than indigenous cultures, then what is the logical justification for us imposing Western values?

Please clarify what your position on this is.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
In reality, what happens if that the culture with the best guns wins.

So what? Unless you're arguing that "might makes right," it really doesn't matter whose beliefs actually prevail. Rather, the question is whose beliefs should prevail. But then I'm not surprised you didn't address that question, since moral relativists don't have a good answer for it, although, it should be noted, they at least try to answer it.

Im more interested in how a difference of opinions can find common ground. Im tired of this, "who is right". Crap.. Everyone is right, and everyone is wrong. What I cant stand is when one side concedes understanding of anothers issues, that side runs on it instead of returning the favor. This country was founded on compromise, and most of all, this Tea Party movement has denied it, and because of that spawned Trump and, in a major backlash, also spawned Sanders on the left. The thing is, except for a small minority of choir sung conservatives preached to by Fox, Limbaugh, the NRA, and whatever else...noone else is buying that rhetoric. Its extreme and not how the US wants to see itself. Its not the fiscal conservative people are turned of by...its the social conservatism. The GOP just cant move beyond the 50's, they tout as a "Golden Age". But its only golden for white men and they are failing to sell that product to the rest of America that know better. This is no longer the "Donna Reed Show". Get over it.

1 Reply

@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

Hey, if someone wants to give me a hug, I'm ready. At my age there are damn few of any age or gender who are willing to do so.

Ill hug you! You hit the nail on th head. If we keep splitting the way we are doing, Lincoln will be rolling in his grave, if he isnt already. "A house devided cannot stand."

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Did I misunderstand what you were saying?

Yes.

maxdancona wrote:

I thought you were arguing that it was OK to impose Western values on indigenous cultures.

You're wrong.

maxdancona wrote:

If Western values aren't more correct than indigenous cultures, then what is the logical justification for us imposing Western values?

I have no idea.

maxdancona wrote:

Please clarify what your position on this is.

I just asked a series of questions. I'm still waiting for you to clarify your position in response, despite the fact that you pledged you wouldn't dodge any of my questions.

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@Lilkanyon,

Lilkanyon wrote:

This is no longer the "Donna Reed Show".

I'll keep that in mind.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Ill go right to the expert on this question. The Ali Khamenei of Iran. Ill e mail him and see what happens.

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Realmeninist is not me.

I would never say that about women without being, (cynical).

I have one face, an honest face and my being knows of no other face that I wear.

I may have two profiles but they are the same face. I "never" use two profiles to vote on the same person.

I stand opposed to male chauvinism and I support feminism.

I always support those who are treated unequally by society.

Black lives matter... and so do the lives of feminists!

Wherever there is disparity I will be there trying to help.

The nature of the world is to doubt the integrity of those who try and stand in power. This is a great protective mechanism because it demands higher standards from our world leaders.

Feminism is a human right just like race and sexual identity.

But feminism has been around since long before race.

Just as sexual identity has been around as long as life has paired together into two opposite sexes.

I believe deeply about my convictions for equality and freedom.

I find racists, male chauvinists and homophobes to be a waste of my time. I consider people of that ilk "dysfunctional".

No sexual gender is inherently evil, just as in total darkness there are still many wavelengths of light present.

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@TheCobbler,

Come on TheCobbler!

It is clearly a sock puppet, some body who hates something they call "meminists" with the transparent plan of putting words in their mouths.

This is the oldest trick in the book Cobbler.

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@TheCobbler,

You do realize that the Black Lives Matter movement is a men's rights movement. It is protesting the injustice that Black men face... but they are men. White women aren't being imprisoned out of proportion. Men (of any race) are far more likely to spend time in prison than women. And a man will get a longer prison sentence than a woman for the same crime.

Far more black men are arrested or stopped by police or frisked than white women.

For any white woman to deny that she is privileged compared to black men is being ridiculous.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Just to clarify my last post.

You can be in favor of both men's rights and woman's rights. Just because the Black Live's Matter movement focuses on issues that are most damaging to young Black men (i.e. incarceration, police brutality and vigilantism), doesn't mean that it is anti-woman.

This is one of the fallacies of modern feminism-- the myth that challenging negative stereotypes about men or policies that unfairly impact men is the same as attacking women. It is not.

I am in favor of equal pay, and safety and LGBT rights. I am also in favor of fair custody hearing and equal sentencing. You can do both equally.

The prominent feminist voices in the US, for some reason, don't accept this.

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Max, I know you're not dodging my questions because you told me you wouldn't do that. So, to refresh your recollection, here are some of my questions that remain outstanding:

earlier, Joefromchicago wrote:

Well, which is it? Are you saying that there's no way to determine if western values are correct? Or are you simply admitting that you have no way to make that determination? And why would you respect other cultures' values anyway? What would you say to someone who takes the position that other cultures' values are not worthy of respect? Would you say that person was wrong to hold that belief?

1 Reply

Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

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