Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

@joefromchicago,

Actually, I think the discussion about multiculturalism is far more important and interesting than punctuation.

I would be interesting to hear how you resolve the conflict between multiculturalism and modern Western ideas about feminism. TheCobbler, with his or her invention of a "common culture" best illustrates the problem.

Multiculturalism says that the beliefs and practices of indigenous cultures are equally valid as those of the dominant, Western European, culture. And yet, in the name of feminism (which sprung from the Western cultural context), we are still judging indigenous cultures which don't share our beliefs and practices as "uncivilized". The call here is that we should impose our beliefs on indigenous cultures (in spite of the uncomfortable fact that the brutal colonialism of Western Europe over much of the world did just that)..

TheCobbler says that "feminism is the pillar by which all cultures are judged". (And I think this phrase is wonderfully illustrative!).

I would love to hear how you resolve this conflict? Is multiculturalism dead?

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@joefromchicago,

He has stated at length somewhere how he has distaste for radical feminism but of course doesn't mind milder forms (that most feminists agree with). He tends to not pay attention to non rads.

Millions of women get to be scapegoated as rad feminists - who don't engage in rad feminism.

Max is essentially all against feminism all the time, though he will argue that. But that is the outflow of his posts.

Makes me want to read up on the rads and see if I somehow agree. I'm easily bored, though.

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@ossobuco,

Thanks Osso. But I am going a little further. My distaste is for the "feminism" that now permeates popular culture and politics in the US.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the work of Christina Hoff Sommers. I like her definition of equity feminism, I could go with that. Equity feminism is truly about equality meaning that issues that impact men negatively (like child custody and prison sentencing) are equally as important as issues that impact women negatively.

As she points out, that is not what is permeating our society right now. I am not sure why you are talking about the number of women who aren't "rad" feminists. In fact 80% of women aren't feminists at all.

The interesting issue that was raised in this thread is the conflict between multiculturalism and feminism. Would you care to take a shot at this Osso?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Actually, I think the discussion about multiculturalism is far more important and interesting than punctuation.

It's not about punctuation, it's about opposing a strawman of your own creation. As you admitted, you're not against feminism, you're against "feminism." Those are two entirely different things.

maxdancona wrote:

I would be interesting to hear how you resolve the conflict between multiculturalism and modern Western ideas about feminism. TheCobbler, with his or her invention of a "common culture" best illustrates the problem.

Ho hum. Just another variation on your hobbyhorse of moral relativism. It's no more convincing here than the other times you've raised it.

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@joefromchicago,

OK Joe, if you want to dodge the issues, there isn't much I can do.

There is a national backlash against feminism in the US that includes men and women. The term feminism has negative connotations to many people, both men and women. And, there is an international backlash against feminism as a new form of colonialism that is imposing Western values on indigenous cultures. This isn't just me saying this.

I think this is a worthwhile discussion in a thread about feminism.

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@maxdancona,

I don't know what feminism permeates popular culture. I might agree with equity feminism if I knew more, but it sounds like more jargon. Most women and men don't live in jargon.

Some fat percent of women I have ever known are in some way feminist. Of course, I am from the US and also read widely, but not so much reading a lot re cultures of female subjugation, though I have read some of that once in a while. Did read one, presently forget the author's name, set in Iran.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

There is a national backlash against feminism in the US that includes men and women.

Really? Is that a backlash against feminism or against "feminism?"

maxdancona wrote:

And, there is an international backlash against feminism as a new form of colonialism that is imposing Western values on indigenous cultures.

If western values are correct, then what's the problem with imposing them on indigenous cultures?

maxdancona wrote:

This isn't just me saying this.

Yes, I know. That makes me despair for humanity.

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@ossobuco,

You can look up the statistics for yourself. There are reputable polls that are taken (and they do say only about 20% of US women identify themselves as feminists).

Christina Hoff Sommers has quite a bit to say about the difference between equality feminism (which she defines as being about equality) and "gender" feminism. She was a college professor and is both informed and intelligent.

If you are open to an intelligent criticism of feminism (as it is predominantly practiced in the US day), she would be a good author to read. "Who Stole Feminism" is her most well-known work.

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@maxdancona,

Oh, that's nice.

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@maxdancona,

Don't try to instruct me on feminism, you toasted filbert.

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

If western values are correct, then what's the problem with imposing them on indigenous cultures?

Exactly. This is the key question. This is also the justification for colonialism.

You said that you weren't interested in this discussion... so please stop responding if this discussion truly doesn't interest you (it does interest me).

The obvious next question is why are Western European values the correct values? The Western European culture was able to subjugate (and often demolish) the indigenous cultures of Africa, the America and (to a lesser extent) Asia.

Western European culture has had the military and economic strength to impose it's values on indigenous cultures for centuries... and we have done just that.

Is it a coincidence that the only culture that has the "correct" values is the one that now dominates much of the planet... or is that just blind luck.

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@ossobuco,

I am not instructing you on feminism Osso.

I am questioning feminism with facts, and I am pointing you an intelligent and informed writer with a different perspective.

One criticism of modern feminism is that it is largely based on confirmation bias. There is a narrative that can't be questioned, and facts that contradict this narrative are either ignored or lead to personal attacks on the person who dares to discuss them.

If you don't want to see things from a different perspective or want your confirmation bias challenged, then you can ignore what I or Christina Hoff Sommers or anyone else has to say.

I am still going to say it.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
If western values are correct, then what's the problem with imposing them on indigenous cultures?

Exactly. This is the key question. This is also the justification for colonialism.

OK Max, if you want to dodge the issues, there isn't much I can do.

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Before I leave, I'll take a minute to say I'm glad to see Joe from Chicago.

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@joefromchicago,

Sorry Joe, I have no problem answering the question. You will get no dodging from me.

I do not believe that Western values are any more correct (or superior) to the indigenous cultures of the Americas or Africa or anywhere else we imposed our culture. If Western values were more correct that those of other cultures, then sure... we could impose them on the world, by force if necessary.

Does that answer your question?

Of course, the history of Western Colonialism which is built on the idea that Western values are superior (as they must be if Western values are correct and indigenous values are incorrect). When Europeans met these indigenous cultures we saw that they had different values and cultural practices. We judged that our values were the correct ones and that these other cultures are uncivilized... much as we are doing now (as shown in this discussion).

This makes many of us quite uncomfortable.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Is that what most people call "double talk?"

Of course, that's the best example of double talk or some call it baffalony.

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@joefromchicago,

Here's the thing JFC, I suspect max thinks he is answering a question, it's just not the question that was asked. He doesn't understand how insulting his comments are, or maybe he does and that's why he always takes a sharp left or right and introduces another topic that he thinks make sense, but sadly no one else does. Most just get royally pissed as he shifts and bluffs. What's unfortunate is that I think he really doesn't understand how he sounds to others, I believe he is a true believer of the convoluted nonsense he presents. He is the only one here who doesn't know it's nonsense.
He probably does want a calm informed discussion, if he ever learns to listen instead of assume, he might actually get one. The poor soul has actually asked people if they need a hug, dear god he doesn't have a clue how he appears to others. I don't think he realizes how paternalistic and offensive that is. But he wants an honest and sincere discussion, I'm all for it, but not until he learns to be honest and sincere. I don't want the job, he won't listen to a mature women, he probably needs coaching from another man, a mature grounded male.

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@glitterbag,

glitterbag wrote:

The poor soul has actually asked people if they need a hug, dear god he doesn't have a clue how he appears to others.

That's really creepy, unwanted touching, even the thought of it, is quite sickening.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Sorry Joe, I have no problem answering the question. You will get no dodging from me.

We'll see.

maxdancona wrote:

I do not believe that Western values are any more correct (or superior) to the indigenous cultures of the Americas or Africa or anywhere else we imposed our culture. If Western values were more correct that those of other cultures, then sure... we could impose them on the world, by force if necessary.

Does that answer your question?

Well, which is it? Are you saying that there's no way to determine if western values are correct? Or are you simply admitting that you have no way to make that determination? And why would you respect other cultures' values anyway? What would you say to someone who takes the position that other cultures' values are not worthy of respect? Would you say that person was wrong to hold that belief?

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@ossobuco,

Many people dont know that feminist, democrat, and republican can be many degrees of belief. Only one definition for each is recognized because they are unable to empathize with others.

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Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

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