6
   

Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

 
 
momoends
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 02:49 pm
@maxdancona,
I think I am correct that feminism was developed by Western thinkers in in a Western cultural context. Do you have any evidence to counter this point? Do you?
accept your correction about equal "rights" vs "roles". I suppose I used the word "roles" because it fits better with my anthropological points, every society has defined gender roles... not every society assigns rights. When I am referring to your points, I will try to remember to used the terms "right" to refer to your point of view.i don´t care about roles: if you love to be a house wife, i would be so happy for you... whether is a role that could fit the traditional and machismo stereotypical life... Rights are what we are dealing here with, that´s all.
Name two known civilizations were their citizen rights were not clearly stated and given
let me get clear that smooth running society is also an intellectual point about anthropology for me too. Different cultures different values... that´s correct I can´t recall any comment I stated the contrary
mine is a western cultural perspective and its different from yours how?
just so you realize how hard i try to have a dialogue rather than a fight too, notice i have answer to all the point you state and list in this, your last post...
instead of bringing back the fact that you haven´t accepted you brought the issue about multiculturalism (not me) and that you were the one being condescending on a first place, as you were the one using feminism as an offensive qualifier adjective to show how no sense an idea seems to you



momoends
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 02:50 pm
@maxdancona,
PD: the correct and usual thing to say is:
if i get your words wrong, i apologize

being corrected is something i hardly believe to be appreciated by you
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 02:53 pm
@momoends,
Disagreement is not condescension. I have expressed my opinions and backed them up with evidence. And, I have listened to your opinions. I have agreed with some of what you have said, and disagreed with you on other points. I consider it a strength that I can accept much of what you are saying.

This is what dialog means.

I want to understand why you disagree with my assertion that feminism is a Western Cultural artifact. This seems to be an important difference in our positions. Could you please explain your opinion on this and provide any evidence you have?
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 02:59 pm
@maxdancona,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism_in_Greece
there you have wikipedia
and let remember this day when you became a relevant figure of the feminist movement as stated in wikipedia
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:02 pm
@momoends,
You seem to be interested in winning a fight rather than having a dialog. I am actually sincerely interested to see if you have any real evidence. I would be happy if you could give me a real counterpoint that I didn't know about.

This article seems to be about what happened in a Western European culture during the 20th century. Maybe I am missing something, but I would love it if there was something here. Could you explain to me why you think that Feminism was not developed in a Western cultural context?

We both said we are looking for dialog... this isn't about winning a fight (is it?)
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:10 pm
@momoends,
Really Momoends, you spammed Wikipedia to just to win this argument?

That's awesome!!!!


maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:14 pm
@maxdancona,
Although, it might have been a more productive way to have a dialogue had you provided evidence to support your position rather than spamming the well sourced Wikipedia article to score a point.

... just a suggestion (I will let you decide whether to clean up the mess you made in that article yourself, or to let the editors fix it).
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:20 pm
@maxdancona,
ok, the rome Saffo got to live was a Rome where women were allowed to get an education and many were to be found among the important filosofos y escritores. Saffo, who was not a lesbian but bisexual as were most of the romans and was in fact in love with a poet she deeply admire, unfortunately witnessed a radical social ideology that claimed women should be deprived of the rights that gave them equal status roman citizen to men cause they were inferior to them. She moved to the isle of Lesbos where she directed a school for women, where they were taught about poetry, maths, astronomy and every subject worth to be study. She had to see her pupils leave the school and their freedom when they got married, never to see them again.... and felt so unfair to her that she wrote extensively about it and publicly denounce the abusive of the situation and why women and men should be treated as equals as had been till that moment.
The result was being banned from the capital and her writings and poems erase from history. It´s barely known as a Poet but she was so influent and considered that Platon, two siecles later talk about her as the tenth Muse.
would you consider her to be a feminist?
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:22 pm
@maxdancona,
i know!!

now you saw it im going to delete it... but mind my words: wikipedia is not a reliable source
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:34 pm
@momoends,
Your stunt didn't make your point.

Wikipedia is a good source, not perfect, but it is a very good way to get an overview of a given subject. Many articles are well-written with sources. When there are sources you can check on the information yourself.

This is another tangent.
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:40 pm
@maxdancona,
stunt: offensive and respective calificative
second; if wikipedia is a good source once i´ve proven how easily biased and inaccurate information in there can be,,, i have no words
tangent is being given another link of wikipedia proving my arguments and batlantly ignore it
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:44 pm
@momoends,
Thank you... this is what I wanted to see. (I speak Spanish by the way... the mix made me chuckle. We do the same thing, switching languages mid sentences at my house.)

I am open-minded, but Skeptical. You are making some assertions about Sappho that I am not sure are true.

- Could you provide a source for the idea that women ever had rights that they then lost? My knowledge of Roman (and earlier Etruscan) cultures was that women were always expected to be in the House and the men had all of the political power. It has been a while since I have had history class.

- Could you provide a reliable historical source for your assertion that Sappho started a school for women that taught math and science?

- Could you provide a reliable historical source for your claim that she "publicly denounced" the unfairness that women and men "should be treated as equals".

If these things were true (particularly the last part) than yes, there is a good argument that she should be considered a feminist.

But in order to make these claims, and to make arguments based on them, you need to have reliable historical sources.

I really hope you can provide a reliable historical source that Sappho denounced the inequality between men and women. That would directly challenge my understanding of history. I love it when my beliefs are challenged by facts that contradict them.

Can you do this for me?







momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:49 pm
@maxdancona,
so you ask about reliable historical source to prove my assertion but you get wikipedia enough to prove yours?
anyway: name two civilizations that had not documents or texts listing right given to their citizens
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:49 pm
@maxdancona,
I have a friend who is an expert in the Classics (i.e. ancient Greek and Roman culture and literature). Out of curiosity I am going to check this with him.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 03:59 pm
@momoends,
Fair question. I think you have a point, particularly about citizens.

I want to make the argument that Western philosophical ideas about rights are somehow different than earlier laws protecting property and offering protection. I am not sure if I am going to be able to do that. I am going to concede the point (unless my classics friend can help me).

On the other hand, earlier societies seem to lack the idea of universal human rights. Slavery was common in bronze age human cultures from around the world.

But I think you are right that most cultures had written (or oral) laws that provided some level of rights to citizens. Often these rights were based on class or family, but they were provided.

I concede the point (which is a fine thing to do when you are having a dialogue).
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 04:01 pm
@maxdancona,
http://www.estudiogeneraldehumanidades.es/grecia/safo.html
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 04:07 pm
@maxdancona,
http://www.taringa.net/posts/femme/14302299/Safo-vida-obra-y-amores-Megapost.html
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 04:11 pm
@maxdancona,
http://www.razonypalabra.org.mx/anteriores/n47/gbarabino.html
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 04:11 pm
@momoends,
Gracias Momoends, es justo que discutimos un texto en español (un dialogo en una lengua secunda es mas difícil Wink ). Leyere el texto para responder mas tarde.
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 04:13 pm
@maxdancona,
http://www.nuevatribuna.es/articulo/cultura---ocio/safo-de-lesbos-la-censurada/20120105175929068692.html
0 Replies
 
 

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