Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

@joefromchicago,

1. Yes I am saying there is no way way to determine if Western values are correct.
2. Yes I am also admitting that I have no way to make that determination.
3. I respect the values of other cultures because I choose to. Multiculturalism is a value (which is part of my Western cultural values) that is important to me.
4. I have been talking to people who takes the position that other cultures' are not worth of respect. You can see what I say to them by reading my posts on this thread.
5. Yes, that person is wrong to hold that belief.

I think I got them all.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Thank you for your responses.

maxdancona wrote:

1. Yes I am saying there is no way way to determine if Western values are correct.
2. Yes I am also admitting that I have no way to make that determination.

Then you have no basis for arguing that someone who disagrees with you is wrong. Thus if someone were to say "other cultures' values do not deserve to be respected," all you can do is say that you find that position displeasing on an esthetic level.

maxdancona wrote:

3. I respect the values of other cultures because I choose to. Multiculturalism is a value (which is part of my Western cultural values) that is important to me.

Then, again, you are left with what amounts to an esthetic choice. You respect other cultures because that position appeals to you. And as with any esthetic choice, others are free to make the opposite choice. De gustibus non est disputandum.

maxdancona wrote:

4. I have been talking to people who takes the position that other cultures' are not worth of respect. You can see what I say to them by reading my posts on this thread.

Indeed, but if you have no basis for determining that you're right and they're wrong, they have no reason to be convinced by your arguments.

maxdancona wrote:

5. Yes, that person is wrong to hold that belief.

How can you say that? You've just admitted that you have no way to determine if Western values are correct. So how can you determine that some other person's values are incorrect?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

I was raised in the Northeastern United States in the last part of the 20th century. I first received my values from middle class parents. Then I received a fairly liberal public education and went to two Northeaster colleges, one private and one public. During this time I was surrounded by a mixture of people. The family I grew up in is an interracial family... a fact that put me into somewhat different circles than normal White men of my age.

All of these influences have given me a set of values that are important to me. I will tell you quite clearly what I believe is right and wrong. If you claim that my beliefs are simply estethic choices... I will tell you are being ridiciulous.

Whatever you think of them, my values are an important part of who I am. They inform my choices and direct my conscience.

My value system happens to be fairly typical for a White educated man of my age. I support LGBT rights, believe in freedom and equality, oppose racism, think rape is wrong.... etc. etc.

And Multiculturalism is part of this.

Multiculturalism to me, is simply the acknowledgment that... although my values are very real to me and important to how I judge the world, they are in a large part directed by my culture, how I grew up, what I was taught and the experiences that influenced me.

As an educated White man of the 21st century I have very strong views about what is right or wrong. But when faced with people from other cultures... I have to acknowledge and respect the fact that they have equally strong views that sometimes are dramatically different to mine.

In these cases, I have two choices.... either I have to believe that somehow my cultural beliefs take precedence over the equally strong beliefs of other cultures. Or I have to accept that when two equal cultures have different ideas of right or wrong, each has to respect the other with no absolute way to determine (outside of assuming that one is better than the other) which should prevail.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I will tell you quite clearly what I believe is right and wrong.

I don't doubt it, but you really have no basis for that belief, apart from your innate disposition to prefer the familiar over the unfamiliar. Your sense of right and wrong, therefore, is akin to your sense of taste. Or, in other words, it's an esthetic preference.

maxdancona wrote:

If you claim that my beliefs are simply estethic choices... I will tell you are being ridiciulous.

I'm sure you will, but you would have no basis for making that assertion.

maxdancona wrote:

Whatever you think of them, my values are an important part of who I am. They inform my choices and direct my conscience.

Quite so, but then that's also true of your esthetic preferences. And, for you, there's no difference.

maxdancona wrote:

Multiculturalism to me, is simply the acknowledgment that... although my values are very real to me and important to how I judge the world, they are in a large part directed by my culture, how I grew up, what I was taught and the experiences that influenced me.

Your multiculturalism is simply taking the motto of chacun a son goute and elevating it into an ethical system, which is rather absurd. But it's not even that, since it's an ethical system that binds only you, and that's not a system at all, that's a personal preference.

maxdancona wrote:

In these cases, I have two choices.... either I have to believe that somehow my cultural beliefs take precedence over the equally strong beliefs of other cultures. Or I have to accept that when two equal cultures have different ideas of right or wrong, each has to respect the other with no absolute way to determine (outside of assuming that one is better than the other) which should prevail.

What convinces you that there's no way to determine which one is better?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

I don't see the importance of the point you are making.

You are claiming that my beliefs about right and wrong are from esthetic preference (you seem to be ignoring the point that they are deeply ingrained by the way I was raised, the people around me and culture I live in). I don't see the big deal. If you want to call them esthetic preferences, so what?

Some people get their beliefs about right and wrong from the word of some deity. Some people get it from their understanding of absolute truth. Others of us apparently get it from esthetic preferences. What's important is that all of us living in a modern Western Culture have an common agreement about what is acceptable in our culture. This allows our culture to function relatively smoothly.

Quote:

What convinces you that there's no way to determine which one is better?

Call it an axiom. I do not believe in absolute moral truth. I have seen no evidence to contradict my belief that absolute moral truth does not exist.

But if you are pointing out that I can not prove that there is an absolute moral truth, then I concede the point. I can not disprove the existence of absolute moral truth any more than I can disprove the existence of God.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You are claiming that my beliefs about right and wrong are from esthetic preference (you seem to be ignoring the point that they are deeply ingrained by the way I was raised, the people around me and culture I live in). I don't see the big deal. If you want to call them esthetic preferences, so what?

It's not a big deal if we're only dealing with you and your preferences. After all, you can live your life by whatever lights you choose. But it's different when it comes to evaluating the choices made by other people. In those cases, it matters a great deal if you're saying that they should abide by your esthetic preferences.

maxdancona wrote:

What's important is that all of us living in a modern Western Culture have an common agreement about what acceptable is in our culture. This allows our culture to function relatively smoothly.

That's your criterion? Efficiency?

maxdancona wrote:

Call it an axiom. I do not believe in absolute moral truth. I have seen no evidence to contradict my belief that absolute moral truth does not exist.

Yet you're willing to say that the ethical positions of some people are wrong. How can you square that circle?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Multiculturalism means that you accept that you live in a cultural context. I am part of the US culture. I have a very good understanding of what the people I interact with every day, from co-workers to neighbors to fellow subway riders, expect of me. I don't have to cover my arms, I do have to cover other parts of my body (depending on the situation). I understand all of this as it applies in my culture.

As a 21st century American, I value freedom, and fairness and respect for law and education and justice. I believe in human rights, and democracy. All of us have a set of core values (with fairly minor differences about what they mean).

As part of the US culture, I also have a stake in the culture. I have every right to criticize it and to change it. After all, I have an intimate understanding of how the culture works... and a pretty good understanding of the history of the culture. I also understand very well the needs of individuals living in the 21st century... we no longer need to worry about procreation, our child mortality rate is very low, our farming can be done by a very small number of people... I don't need to worry about food. I also understand the implied social beliefs of the culture, and the specific ways that US culture allows differences in some ways and pressure conformity in others.

As this... I have every right to comment on, to support, to criticize or to work to change my own culture.

I don't believe believe that I have the same right to criticize another culture, for example indigenous cultures. I don't have any stake in these cultures. I don't have much common understanding. I don't understand the needs, or the beliefs or the history of these other cultures. I do not believe that I have the right to impose my cultural values on people who aren't part of my culture.

You have a right to your own culture. Multiculturalism applies when you encounter other cultures (which often have very different values, needs, understandings and practices).

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I don't believe believe that I have the same right to criticize another culture, for example indigenous cultures. I don't have any stake in these cultures. I don't have much common understanding. I don't understand the needs, or the beliefs or the history of these other cultures. I do not believe that I have the right to impose my cultural values on people who aren't part of my culture.

What makes a person a part of your culture? Suppose, for instance, that a family from Egypt travels to the US for a vacation. The family consists of a father, a mother, and an infant daughter. The family is part of a culture that believes in female "circumcision" - i.e. the surgical removal of an infant's clitoris. While in the US, the parents decide to have this procedure performed on their infant daughter. Disregarding the legality of the procedure for the moment, would it be permissible for US authorities to impose their cultural values on the parents by preventing the procedure from taking place?

maxdancona wrote:

You have a right to your own culture. Multiculturalism applies when you encounter other cultures (which often have very different values, needs, understandings and practices).

Is multiculturalism a value of your culture, or is it something that's peculiar to you?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

1. Law is not morality. And force is not morality. In the U.S. there are laws against female "circumcision" and there is a mechanism (courts and police) to enforce compliance. You use the word "permissible" which is an interesting word choice. Clearly the U.S. can and does make this procedure illegal an punish adults who participate.

You are against "female circumcision". I am going to guess that (like me) you are in favor of legal abortions.

Legal abortions might be an example of a procedure that some people are horrified by... but that you think is permissable. (Please understand... I don't want to argue abortion. I am just trying to get you to understand what it is like to be in someone else's shoes in these questions). I would ask, for any of these questions... to put yourself on the other side of the balance and see if this helps you look at things from another perspective.

For this question, the way to see a different perspective would be for you to ask yourself if it would be "permissible" for a country that bans abortion to prevent an American from getting an abortion while they are visiting.

2. Yes, multiculturalism is a value of US culture. It is a word we hear in school and a concept that we are all aware of. Of course we differ some on the details, but the ideas I am arguing here are based on ideas that are part of US culture at large.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

1. Law is not morality. And force is not morality. In the U.S. there are laws against female "circumcision" and there is a mechanism (courts and police) to enforce compliance. You use the word "permissible" which is an interesting word choice. Clearly the U.S. can and does make this procedure illegal an punish adults who participate.

Here again is what I asked:

Quote:

Disregarding the legality of the procedure for the moment, would it be permissible for US authorities to impose their cultural values on the parents by preventing the procedure from taking place?

Obviously, I understand the legal implications. But that's not what I was asking about. I was asking about the imposition of cultural values. Those are two different things. Given that the US can legally prevent the operation, is it necessarily right to do so, given that the US, according to you, should also respect the parents' cultural values?

maxdancona wrote:

For this question, the way to see a different perspective would be for you to ask yourself if it would be "permissible" for a country that bans abortion to prevent an American from getting an abortion while they are visiting.

Are you suggesting that legal abortion is a western cultural value?

maxdancona wrote:

2. Yes, multiculturalism is a value of US culture.

How do you figure? You, after all, are the one who argues that the US shouldn't impose its culture on others. That means that, at least in some instances, the US has tried to impose its culture on others. Doesn't that suggest that the US doesn't view multiculturalism (or, at least, your version of multiculturalism) as a cultural value for itself?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

I don't really get your line of questioning here Joe. I am asking you to try to step out of your own cultural context, and to try to look it objectively, realizing that as part of your culture your own beliefs and values are heavily influenced by your culture. You seem to be resisting this.

I will continue to answer your questions... but you keep on asking about what is "necessarily right" and "permissible". These terms are clearly defined by whatever cultural context you are operating under.

So let's continue (but I really don't understanding where we are going with this).

1. Yes it is "necessarily right" for the US to prevent (using laws and enforcement) female circumcisions from happening in the US.

2. Yes, legal abortion is a value inherent in Western cultural of the 21st century.

3. No, the fact that the US has tried to impose its culture on others doesn't suggest that the US doesn't view multiculturalism as a cultural value for itself.

I am using your words, which is part of the problem... Western culture is very complex, some of our values contradict other values, which is why we have political debates over issues. The fact that a value is part of a culture doesn't mean that it is the only part of the culture.

Are you claiming that that the ideas supporting legal abortion and multiculturalism aren't part of American cultural understanding?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I don't really get your line of questioning here Joe. I am asking you to try to step out of your own cultural context, and to try to look it objectively, realizing that as part of your culture your own beliefs and values are heavily influenced by your culture. You seem to be resisting this.

Cultural mores are uninteresting to me. On the other hand, the fact that you (and others like you) confuse cultural mores for morality is of interest to me.

maxdancona wrote:

I will continue to answer your questions... but you keep on asking about what is "necessarily right" and "permissible". These terms are clearly defined by whatever cultural context you are operating under.

Admittedly, the task is difficult. That's because I'm trying to talk in terms of morality, but you don't believe in morality, so concepts like "obligation" and "right and wrong" are inapplicable to you. That leads to the use of such terms as "permissible," which are, I acknowledge, of limited usefulness.

maxdancona wrote:

1. Yes it is "necessarily right" for the US to prevent (using laws and enforcement) female circumcisions from happening in the US.

Again, I'm not interested in the laws. I'm interested in whether you think the US can impose its cultural values on the parents.

maxdancona wrote:

2. Yes, legal abortion is a value inherent in Western cultural of the 21st century.

You'd find a great many people who disagree with you on that point. Are they, then, outside western culture?

maxdancona wrote:

3. No, the fact that the US has tried to impose its culture on others doesn't suggest that the US doesn't view multiculturalism as a cultural value for itself.

So what does that mean? Is the US just a common hypocrite?

maxdancona wrote:

Are you claiming that that the ideas supporting legal abortion and multiculturalism aren't part of American cultural understanding?

I make no claims about American cultural understanding. That's not my term, that's yours. I'm just trying to figure out your position.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

I keep answering the same questions over and over again. I don't believe in God. And I don't believe in any other source of absolute moral truth. If you aren't interested in cultural mores... and I don't accept your supernatural view of some universal moral structure that supersedes human cultures, I don't know if continuing this discussion is interesting to either of us.

I will continue to answer your questions...

1. Yes, the US can impose its cultural values on the parents.
2. No people who are against abortion are not outside of US culture. This is a big complex culture and in this case these opposite values are both completely at home in mainstream US culture.
3. Yes, the US culture is a common hypocrite. Actually I am not exactly sure what you mean here... but many parts of the US foreign policy seem awfully hypocritical to me, so I will say yes.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I keep answering the same questions over and over again. I don't believe in God. And I don't believe in any other source of absolute moral truth.

I don't know why you keep answering those questions over and over again. I never asked them.

maxdancona wrote:

I don't accept your supernatural view of some universal moral structure that supersedes human cultures

Who said anything about "supernatural?"

maxdancona wrote:

1. Yes, the US can impose its cultural values on the parents.

But you just got finished saying that the US shouldn't impose its values on other cultures. So which is it?

maxdancona wrote:

2. No people who are against abortion are not outside of US culture. This is a big complex culture and in this case these opposite values are both completely at home in mainstream US culture.

Well, if a culture's values can encompass both pro-abortion and anti-abortion, then I'm not sure that "culture" is a particularly useful concept.

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1 Reply

@TheCobbler,

I don't know about you Cobbler.... but I sure wish she had been a astronaut instead.

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@maxdancona,

we were colonized by arabs 700 hundred years, previously by nordic tribes.. later on we were conquered by romans and many years later we colonized parts of south america. is that enough multiculturalism?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

considering most powerful judges, politic leaders and armed forces high charges are men... child custody and prison sentencing should not be held as arguments against feminism at all... more as examples of what machismo brings to our lives

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@maxdancona,

if you are a white citizen of the united states you should leave the country and head back to your original one, if you despise so much western european culture... if you are a native american individual... i´m sorry about everything

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@maxdancona,

why don´t we just talk about what happens here on daily basis and stop referring to other countries and avoiding the issue here.

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Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

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