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Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

 
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 07:42 am
@momoends,
Spain subjugated the people that it colonized, and they were brutal.

The Spanish conquistadors forced indigenous people of the Americas to give up their religion and their cultures and their practices. They killed villages who would not submit and took children away from parents to teach them Western values.

This is not multiculturalism. What Spain did in the Americas was cultural genocide.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xjcwwA-nj8k/TLJfFzHFogI/AAAAAAAAA4I/fwI0s75fAJ8/s1600/taino.gif

(Spanish Conquistadors feeding indigenous Americans to the dogs).
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 08:28 am
@maxdancona,
For anyone who hasn't read through and doesn't see the connection here...

The discussion is about what happens when feminism (a product of Western Culture) contradicts with multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism posits that each culture has a different set of beliefs, values and practices with no culture having the right to subjugate another culture. This means that cultural practices should be judged from within the applicable cultural context.

Western Culture is still imposing its beliefs on indigenous cultures, and issues surrounding feminism is part of this.

That is why the experience of indigenous Americans when they were colonized by European powers is relevant.
momoends
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 08:50 am
@maxdancona,
you somehow manage to avoid tricky questions.... you did the same with native american indigenous people, arab did the same to us, carlo magno did the same to all the territories he conquered and romans did the same to half of Europe population..... you seem to ignore whatever reason or arguments that doesn´t fit your opinion and maintain a monologue while pretending to be having a dialogue
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 09:08 am
@momoends,
What tricky questions do you think I am ignoring? Of course my European ancestors were also colonial powers who did horrible things.

You are missing the point. I am saying that former Colonial powers are still telling imposing their will on indigenous cultures... and that this is uncomfortable. Can you accept that?

There is a very difficult question here that I don't pretend to have a good answer to... when is something outrageous enough that it justifies using our economic and military power to impose our values on other cultures. I am not answering that one only because I free admit to not having a good answer. I am surely going to raise the question though.

I am being very open minded here Momends. I have agreed with many of the points you have made, and where I have disagreed, I have explained pretty patiently.

You can tell me what reason or arguments you think I am ignoring. I think I have answered all of them.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 09:19 am
@momoends,
momoends wrote:
you seem to ignore whatever reason or arguments that doesn´t fit your opinion and maintain a monologue while pretending to be having a dialogue


Spot on! +1
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 10:08 am
@izzythepush,
I am not sure that either of you understand the meaning of the word dialogue. A dialogue implies that there are two sides to an issue, and that there can be an interchange of ideas where both sides are respected even if there is no agreement.

I believe I have done this. I have identified the parts of feminism that I agree with and support. I have pointed out the areas of feminism thought or politics that I have problems with. I don't have a single narrative, I am happy to admit that there aren't always easy answers (which has kind of been my point in this thread).

I would love to have a dialogue. That would mean finding someone else who can acknowledge both sides of the issues we are discussing rather than sticking with a single narrative.

momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 12:44 pm
@izzythepush,
talking about european imposing feminism to other cultures.... let´s just talk about our culture and woman equality here.... i haven´t mention or asked feminism to be imposed anywhere else
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 12:54 pm
@momoends,
This issue came up specifically when someone (it may have been you) brought up practices of indigenous cultures to defend ideas of Western feminism. I simply was pointing out the problem with other cultures using your own cultural baggage.

Feminism was created in Western cultures and is informed by Western values and a Western point of view.

I have no problem with having a discussion in a Western cultural context, but once other cultures are included... the assumption that Western cultural perspectives are somehow universal cause a problem.
momoends
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 01:10 pm
@maxdancona,
i mean... i answer your question mentioning different facts i wanted you to take on account and talk about but you just go over and over again the same issue.., ignoring the rest of my post completely
in a dialogue people are supposed to listen each other opinion and answer back.... when one on the parts is fixated on talking and considering exclusively about one particular issue not caring the conversation is taking the participants further from it .... let´s say dialogue is coming fast to an end whether it becomes a Facebook gif (you give the same answer to the same question over and over again) or the rest of the people involved opt to quit and leave the room so you´ll be confortable enough to talk to the only person you seem willing to listen to: yourself
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 01:13 pm
@glitterbag,
thanks glitterbag
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 01:14 pm
@maxdancona,
remind me what i said
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 01:24 pm
@momoends,
I just skimmed back over the discussion in this particular thread. The past few pages have been on multiculturalism and feminism (which is an interesting topic). I am only continuing on this topic because I responding to you. I will be happy to move on. It seems like the multicultualism tangent you jumped into started out (at least on this thread) as an interaction between JoefromChicago and I.

I don't know what a Facebook gif is (a gif is a word for a type of image).
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 01:32 pm
@momoends,
The fact that you say I am "saying the same thing over and over again" is a little funny given the fact that you are responding to me each time. If you are bored... then there is nothing forcing you to interact with me.

There is an ideological narrative here that women are always repressed and that men are always repressive. Like most ideological narratives, this has some truth... but of course reality is more complicated than a single narrative. There are many places where fact and logic contradict the assumptions made by feminist ideas.

We live in a world where increasingly people huddle with people who agree with them. Human beings seem to like echo chambers... I like to challenge ideological assumptions, including my own. I want to encourage you for you willingness to engage with me. I am someone outside of your echo chamber. You seem to have mixed feelings. You are engaging in an intellectual way...but you seem to be reluctant.

You are free to continue to engage with me if you choose. If not, you can simply stop. I hope you continue... for what it is worth I think you are intelligent and interesting, but there is nothing I can do about it either way.
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 01:39 pm
@maxdancona,
I wasn´t the one jumping into multiculturalism
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 01:45 pm
@maxdancona,
no, i brought up those practices cause they are an example of women discrimination all over the world.... feminism was not invented by the current western europe culture... feminism was a reality among celts, mongoles, romans before Atenas became the capital city of the empire time period, egyptian, fenicians.... bla bla bra....
anyway could you please explain what exactly are western cultures?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 01:54 pm
@momoends,
Quote:
feminism was a reality among celts, mongoles, romans before Atenas became the capital city of the empire time period, egyptian, fenicians....


There is no truth to this. Do you really believe Celts, Mongols and Romans believed in equal roles for men and women? It seems like each of these cultures gave men political power and had very well defined roles for men and women in family life.

You can read up on the history of feminism here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism


I want to listen with an open mind to your reasoning here... but on the face of it, it is hard to see how you can support this, especially since it seems to directly contradict the narrative that men have always "repressed" women in every culture.

An interesting tangent (which may not be directly related to the topic) is the weight that our modern Western culture gives to the idea of "equality". Many cultures through history have considered a smooth running society to be more important than equality. I think that this is one of the values that distinguishes our Western society.
momoends
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 02:18 pm
@maxdancona,
im going to be a little ... harsh here: when having and smooth running society means you get the short straw, you don´t give a f@#k about that smooth running society anymore cause the life you get as a member of that society is far from being smooth....
second: i said equal rights not roles!!! that means as a woman you are not submitted to or considered inferior to men thats all.
third: each of those cultures gave men political power?... of course as gave women
forth: i said men have repressed women world widely for ages.... i´ve never said men always repressed women in every culture

that´s twice in one post you change my words into something else entirely different but that attributes me certain phobias and misconceptions or prejudices that makes answering easier
momoends
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 02:21 pm
@maxdancona,
wikipedia? really?
go and visit the link again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism<br />

(just so you get to experience how reliable wikipedia is)
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 02:34 pm
@momoends,
Are we having a fight, or a dialog. I am expressing my opinions and backing them up in hope of a dialog. I don't think I said anything to make you angry, and I don't think you know I "give a ****" about, I can tell you if you ask me.

- I think I am correct that feminism was developed by Western thinkers in in a Western cultural context. Do you have any evidence to counter this point?

- I accept your correction about equal "rights" vs "roles". I suppose I used the word "roles" because it fits better with my anthropological points, every society has defined gender roles... not every society assigns rights. When I am referring to your points, I will try to remember to used the terms "right" to refer to your point of view.

- I also accept your correction between "for ages" and "in every culture". This was my mistake.

- My point was about "smooth running society" was simply an intellectual point about anthropology. Different cultures are set up around different values. This is a documented fact, not really something to argue about.

My point is that you have a Western cultural perspective that informs your beliefs about values, equality and rights. Women and men in other cultures would have a completely different perspective about what these words mean, and what value these words have in deciding how their society is run.

I am trying very diligently to have a dialog rather than a fight. This doesn't mean we have to agree.

If I get your words wrong, I appreciate the correction.



maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2016 02:36 pm
@momoends,
The wikipedia article provides a pretty good overview of what I learned from other sources, including sociology and anthropology courses I have taken. I am open minded... and this is a topic that interests me.

Would you like to provide a different factual source?
 

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