6
   

Feminism (as seen by the GOP)

 
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2016 09:26 pm
@momoends,
Maybe you are blinded by your privileged way of living.

Feminism is a Western ideology. I was developed in Western Cultures by people who have were fully inculcated with the Western perspective. The history of feminism is a history of philosophical thought in Western Europe and the US.

Any modern American (or anyone from modern Western Culture) thinks that our modern thoughts about gender equality are obvious. But that is because our culture raises us to think this way. Clearly other cultures have very different ideas.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2016 09:31 pm
@maxdancona,
Here is a thought experiment for you.

Let's say I could transport you ... along with some books you believe are true, economic power, some guns and a group of people... to Central America in the 1500s.

While you are there you will find flourishing societies. People are farming and hunting and fighting and getting married and raising children all according to their own customs. Yet some of these of these customs are things that you find are barbaric.

What do you do with these indigenous cultures that are so very different to your own? Do you let them be, acknowledge the differences, accept their right to follow their own traditions, and try to learn from them? Or do you use your superior power and force to try to change their culture (even though you aren't a part of it) because you judge the differences to be barbaric.

What would you do Momoends?

Of course this isn't a hypothetical question... this situation actually happened in the 1500s. It didn't end well for the people whose cultures and traditions were judged to be barbaric.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2016 09:39 pm
Humans are very bad at seeing things from any perspective but their own. Doing the work to question our own beliefs and understand them from different cultural viewpoints is a worthwhile thing to do.
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2016 10:15 pm
@maxdancona,
the issue here is being able to make a difference between what you just dont´t aprove and what constitues a cruel, non sense or an unacceptable practice.. i mean, i don´t share the idea of a man having 3 wifes but... it´s hurting nobody, the man and the women consent and live happily together so... should be respected. On the other hand, i see 3 year old girls having her genitalia mutilated to deprived her of any sexual feeling so shell get virgin to marriage and make it more likely to have a faithful wife ..... and i would use my force to erase that practice
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2016 10:22 pm
@maxdancona,
it happened in the 1500, long before in 740, it´s happening nowadays.... i won´t force them to believe in my god, or dress like i do,... but certainly i would fight with all my soul to impose human rights among them.... it´s not colonialism ... it´s human race evolving to be a peaceful civilitation
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2016 08:45 am
@momoends,
Of course it's colonialism.

The only reason you can impose what you are calling "human rights" on other cultures is because your culture has the military and economic power to boss other cultures around.

What we are talking about is indigenous cultures being forced by a Western culture to change their traditions.

You are using the word "evolve" for this process. I question if this is an appropriate term to use for indigenous cultures being forced to adopt Western ideas (including those on "human rights").

The implication here is that our Western European culture is better than these indigenous cultures that we continue to change so that they meet our ideas on what is right or wrong.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2016 08:51 am
@momoends,
The term "human rights" is a religious term. It is a myth... there is no such thing as human rights except as it is defined by your culture. The idea of human rights was invented by European philosophers and taught to us as part of our own culture. Now it is something that we all believe as if it were an absolute truth even though there is no evidence that any such thing exists. There is no more evidence of human rights as there is of any other god.

If you are going to throw that term around... you need to understand that the term has no meaning outside of a Western philosophical framework.

If we are going to talk about other cultures, then you need to accept that other cultures have markedly different ways of understanding right and wrong.

If you want to relate to other cultures in a way that is fair, then you need to drop the idea that your way of thinking about right and wrong is superior.
momoends
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2016 09:20 am
@maxdancona,
the universal declaration of human rights is a document drafted by representatives of countries all over the world listing the basic rights to be worldwide respected and protected, being all of them accepted and cultural assimilable into all of the countries culture and religious believes


i´m an spaniard, i shared a year of my life with a japanese girl during my erasmus year in Liverpool. i befriended a palestinian woman who resulted to be the daughter of one of the leaders of the palestinian resistence, we were both adopted by a bunch of greek guys i´ve keep contact with regularly for the last 18 years....
believe me, i don´t consider my culture to be the best, but one thing in common is we all want a world were our beloved ones can be save, protected and walk freely
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2016 07:56 pm
@momoends,
Do you know anything about the history of the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights"?

It is well known to be a declaration of the values of Western Cultures. Many countries have rejected it for that reason. And many American academics have criticized it for imposing the dominant Western Culture onto indigenous cultures.

I am curious what the opinion of your Palestinian friend would be. Was she a Muslim?

Quote:
i don´t consider my culture to be the best, but one thing in common is we all want a world were our beloved ones can be save, protected and walk freely


This is an interesting statement. The assumption is that your cultural beliefs are the only way to form a society where beloved ones can be safe, protected and free. I am challenging that assumption.

Do you think that indigenous cultures had a world where their beloved ones could be safe, protected and walk freely? I bet that before the European colonizers came, they would have said they did. I have spent time in Central America, and had some contact with indigenous Americans who were still living traditional lifestyles. I can tell you with certainty that they don't think that the imposition of European culture was very good for their way of life.

glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2016 08:20 pm
@maxdancona,
I think its you trying to force the view of momoends into something he/she isn't saying . When I hear someone say 'everyone' I hear 'everyone', not the exclusion of everyone who doesn't belong to to my tribe. I will take a leap of faith here and assume you think the BIG everyone includes all peoples. Perhaps you should not assume others do not define 'everyone or beloved ones' as a narrow group.

I addressed something that appeared to be an assumption on your part, I do not want to argue why there isn't a birth control pill for men because I don't know the answer.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2016 08:39 pm
@glitterbag,
I am not sure exactly what you are responding to Glitterbag... although I am sure that Momoends is more than capable of speaking for herself (she is doing quite well expressing herself here).

You apparently missed the point about the birth control pill.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2016 09:13 pm
@maxdancona,
Well, what the hell, I suppose I can afford to occasionally beat my head against something dense.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2016 01:14 am
@glitterbag,
As if Max will ever think practices like FGM are wrong. Don't waste your time there's plenty of people out there who don't irrationally hate those of the other gender.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2016 07:11 am
@izzythepush,
Izzy is wrong on both counts. Let's get this straight.

1) I do think that practices like FGM are wrong.
2) I don't hate either gender either rationally or irrationally.

Izzy's personal attack is a convenient way for him to avoid the issue.

The issue is a difficult one... what do you do when multiculturalism conflicts with deeply held beliefs of what is right or wrong? We all understand the brutal history of Colonialism where White European culture subjugated indigenous cultures in most of the world. And we understand that this is the culture that we all operate from today... and the culture that developed feminism.

What we are talking about here is imposing our cultural beliefs (which you may or may not believe represent some absolute truth) on to cultures who have cultural practices we think are unacceptable. In what circumstances do we have the right to do this.

Izzy is welcome to explain how he resolves this contradiction. I don't even know if he believes in multiculturalism (i.e. that you should respect and view the cultural beliefs of each society using their own perspective rather than ours).

I really wish he had more to offer on this than personal attacks.
TheCobbler
 
  5  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2016 02:50 am
@maxdancona,
We should not view cultures by their "own' culture but by common culture.

That would be like letting the tea party run our country using their draconian view of the Bible.

We are multicultural and also crazy.

Being multicultural first starts with being multiracial.

We believe in common law and common standards.
We applaud a culture that is what we call "civilized".

Civilized meaning they have specific common codes that curb conduct so that all people are treated equally and respectfully.

Rather than feminism being some abhorrent product of a sick society, feminism instead is perceived as a great pillar of how we judge cultures. You can tout a particular culture all you want though...

Cultures who respect women we value and cultures that mistreat feminine rights and other rights, we consider barbaric.

Feminism was not born out of the privilege of using religion to discriminate.

Feminism is a primal condition for half of humanity where religion is a learned condition.

Feminism is a universal, undisputable concept where religion is a concept that is plagued with contradiction and ambiguity.

Human rights are not a product of religion, if anything, religion has slowed the progress of human rights and civilization.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2016 03:25 am
@TheCobbler,
You're wasting your time, some people find it easier to whinge about how difficult it is being a man, (yeah, right!) than deal with reality.

Other than that you're spot on.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2016 07:15 am
@TheCobbler,
I hope people don't miss the irony in TheCobbler's screed. I love it.

(I am actually not sure if you are joking or not Cobbler.)




0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2016 10:04 am
@TheCobbler,
Just in case you are not joking Cobbler.

I would like to know how what you are referring to as "common culture" differs in any way from modern Western European culture.

(The wonderful irony about your post, of course, is that it was Western European culture that pushed the Bible onto indigenous cultures throughout most of the world.)

0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2016 06:46 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

So no, I am not against feminists, but I am against what I see as a harmful political ideology that is well known as "feminism" in popular culture today.

So, to be clear, you're not against feminism, you're against "feminism." That's about the only accurate thing you've written in this entire thread.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2016 06:53 pm
@joefromchicago,
Is that what most people call "double talk?"
 

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