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The Case For Biden

 
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 11:16 am
@revelette1,
I suspect that Judging past leaders of the country by today's standards might yield a significant rewrite of our history (or that of almost any country for which this was done).

Both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners. (Washington freed his slaves in his will: Jefferson did not. Jefferson also kept a slave as his mistress or concubine and she apparently bore several children by him (he is also accurately considered to have been the most liberal and libertarian of the founders (at least in terms of his expressed beliefs). Benjamin Franklin was a serial philanderer, who fathered many children with wives and others. Andrew Jackson was a vulgar, disruptive and sometimes violent figure (perhaps even more Trumpian than the current version). U.S. Grant was for a time a serious alcoholic. Woodrow Wilson was an interesting combination of a self proclaimed intellectual and a rather serious racist who exhibited far more racial intolerance than was typical of his era.

I believe the point here is that the degree of scrutiny applied to contemporary political figures far exceeds that applied in the past, and occasionally (or often depending on one's perspective) leads to, perhaps inappropriate, summary judgments about their merits as political leaders.

Life and leadership in complex organizations are complex things, and, as the history of all human organizations amply demonstrates, the qualities in a leader most needed in various situations is often significantly dependent on the situation itself and the natures of others involved. There is no single universal formula for good leadership, and the obsession with superficial virtues or, easily faked but politically correct, viewpoints that is so characteristic of the current scene will eventually be seen in history as a deviant, destructive and likely transient phenomenon ( the world has a way of imposing real challenges and threats to real organizations that require real solutions that can't be found in such a superficial environment).

As others here have noted, Biden has a long history on the political stage, and that alone makes him (or anyone else in that situation) vulnerable to the superficial changes in social mores that have occurred during that time. Judging his worth on that alone is, in my view, folly.

I will add that my impression is that Biden does indeed have a quality that I find to be usually very disabling in leaders, and that is an apparent excessive desire to be liked by others. My experience has been that those in the grip of such things can be very destructive to most organizations.
Brand X
 
  0  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 11:24 am
Oops.

'KEY POINTS
Former Vice President Joe Biden on Friday joked about the inappropriate touching accusations made against him by a number of women just days after pledging that he would be “more mindful and respectful” of people’s space.

Biden put his arm around a young boy and told the crowd, “by the way, he gave me permission to touch him.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/biden-jokes-about-accusations-days-after-saying-hed-be-more-mindful.html?__source=facebook%7Cmain&fbclid=IwAR3A9VP_r2XMVpdCQHLT1pWViDmjoZL9bz0pSk3kkjSTMKJ4tgKyTv5AZAA
engineer
 
  2  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 11:54 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

It seems the younger women were more creeped out than the older ones and I truly think it is a generational thing.

Maybe, but I doubt it. What is clearly generational is the feeling that women are empowered to object. From the article I linked to previously.
Quote:
Reading Flores’ claim, I felt the same faint defensive surprise I felt the first time I heard someone explain what sexual harassment was and why it wasn’t OK. (But isn’t he just trying to make her feel pretty? the program says.) I felt much as I did when I first encountered a principled objection to catcalls—specifically, that they made women self-conscious and nervous and unsafe on streets they had every right to occupy unperturbed. (But it’s a compliment!) I felt as I felt when I read my first-ever explanation of how a lot of behavior that the movies taught me to see as charming fit the definition of stalking. (But this is how love looks!) That many women did not feel pretty or complimented or loved was not, for a very long time, factored into the equation. Deprogramming means learning, over and over again, that this isn’t just the order of things. It’s a framework in which men are granted the freedom to behave messily and spontaneously while their conduct is excused and naturalized and made lovable—boys being boys, Joe being Joe. And others endure it like it’s weather.

In a previous generation, women were probably as uncomfortable as women today, the difference is that women back then were expected to "endure it like it's the weather".
revelette1
 
  3  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 12:00 pm
@georgeob1,
I agreed until you had to put in an opinion with absolutely no basis. I suspect he could just as well just be friendly and sympathetic, he seems like he is to me, rather than an unhealthy desire to be liked by everyone.
revelette1
 
  2  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 12:04 pm
@engineer,
Possible more women objected to those issues you raised, just as possible some of them didn't. For instance, I see no reason why a man can't open a door for a woman, but some would be highly insulted by it. I recognize there is a difference between cat calls (which I personally would hate just because I don't like attention drawn to me to like that) and opening doors. I am just not sure every woman would be insulted back in the day by cat calls but I think to be on safe side, it shouldn't be encouraged.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 12:06 pm
@Brand X,
Mocking #metoo
Toasted.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 12:23 pm
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

I agreed until you had to put in an opinion with absolutely no basis. I suspect he could just as well just be friendly and sympathetic, he seems like he is to me, rather than an unhealthy desire to be liked by everyone.


It was indeed an opinion, and the basis for it is, as I indicated, my impression of the man. That, of course does not make it a fact. However, I have a lot of personal experience in the leadership of organizations, and have many times closely observed the successes and failures of others, and myself in such situations. In all that have repeatedly seen and encountered both the need for affirmation on the part of all leaders, and the destructive effects of trying to get it through the affections of others around you, in such a position.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 12:44 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I note that Lash, the perennial conservative Republican, refers to the Democrats as "your party." Not her party, of course.

This is dumb. Lash has forever been saying she's an independent voter on the left. You don't believe her, fine. But there's literally nothing about calling the Democrats "your party" that contradicts that exact stated identity or serves as any kind of proof she must then just be a Republican.
nimh
 
  3  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 12:47 pm
@engineer,
Excellent couple of posts, Engineer, very thoughtful quotes. Interesting that such sober, sensible observations can still also be so thought-provoking.
RABEL222
 
  0  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 01:05 pm
@nimh,
Do you mind if I believe that lash is a republican an operative and occasionally state my belief that she isent the liberal she claims to be or has it become unfashionable to state my opinion.
nimh
 
  2  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 03:30 pm
@RABEL222,
You can believe whatever you want. And your belief is very fashionable here. People keep claiming the same thing over and over and over and over again, to no discernable purpose. I'm the one being downvoted for pointing out that the supposed 'hook' for it this time around didn't even make sense.

Like, if Set thought he was catching her in a slip that would prove that, "see!, she’s no progressive at all, she’s just a Republican pretending to be one!," this.. ain't it.

“Ha! You claim to be a left-wing independent, but you call the Democrats 'your party' instead of 'our party!'" is just a total non sequitur. I mean, that's exactly what a left-wing independent would do.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 03:42 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

You made it personal in 2016 and still can't seem to be civil. I am in fact making you and Snood the only political people I have on total ignore.


That hurts. I will have to up my game.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  4  
Fri 5 Apr, 2019 06:59 pm
@nimh,
I don't believe her because more than sixteen years ago, here, she spoke her conservative creed. We discussed it, civilly at that time. She also started a thread sixteen years ago to attack the Clintons. Then Mrs. Clinton is the front runner in the 2016 primary race, and hey, presto chango, she becomes a fervent Sanders supporter. Now she attacks one Democrat or another almost every day. So I don't believe the leopard has changed her spots. I also don't care what you consider a non sequitur.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Sat 6 Apr, 2019 11:24 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

Setanta wrote:

I note that Lash, the perennial conservative Republican, refers to the Democrats as "your party." Not her party, of course.

This is dumb. Lash has forever been saying she's an independent voter on the left. You don't believe her, fine. But there's literally nothing about calling the Democrats "your party" that contradicts that exact stated identity or serves as any kind of proof she must then just be a Republican.

Well, here's the thing. With the US two party system, it's pretty much you're either with me, or you're against me. That's not going to change unless we adopt a parliamentary system.

Lash has done nothing to indicate she's with me or with the Democrats. As long as she continues to support third-party "alternatives" that weaken or divide support for Democrat candidates, I have to assume she's against me and my goals. The reason being, because the ultimate effect of her actions is to solidify the current regressive policies of the Republican party.

Same goes for Edgar.

I have nothing against their ostensible goals of supporting liberal causes, but their actions actually result in the opposite of what they claim they want. I tend to trust actions more than words, so when their actions would tend to favor Republican victory, then I have to doubt their motives.
Lash
 
  -1  
Sat 6 Apr, 2019 12:42 pm
@DrewDad,
I definitely understand your reasoning.

Here’s mine. The powers that supported McCarthy through his purge of liberal parties whittled our possibilities down to two. Those two parties have merged so close recently that many people- including me -feel that we basically have one corporate-supporting, oligarchic-run State Party. The oligarchs own the news a la Orwell for real, and we are hoping it’s not too late to turn it around.

The window is closing on our chance to turn it around.

So, if you think this is a serious election because *Trump must be stopped*, I just have to laugh because Trump is a minor blip on the radar of what’s really at stake right now in this country—in my opinion and the opinions of everyone else you see who is vociferously #BernieorBust.


This is why a sizable chunk of former democrats, independents, Greens, and some former Republicans are willing to risk another Trump presidency to turn the country around before employees have to take loyalty oaths to Israel in order to be hired... etc...

Some people might believe I’m not being honest about this; others may believe my veracity but think I’m nuts about the state of the US; some may have other objections I haven’t considered.

That’s fine with me.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 6 Apr, 2019 12:57 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Well, here's the thing. With the US two party system, it's pretty much you're either with me, or you're against me. That's not going to change unless we adopt a parliamentary system.

Lash has done nothing to indicate she's with me or with the Democrats. As long as she continues to support third-party "alternatives" that weaken or divide support for Democrat candidates, I have to assume she's against me and my goals. The reason being, because the ultimate effect of her actions is to solidify the current regressive policies of the Republican party.


If a two party system is going to function as a democracy, the parties have to represent the voters. You seem to have that backwards. You are suggesting that the voters have the duty to serve and protect the political parties.

I will support the Democratic party to a point. Sure, I realize that neither political party is going to have positions that match mine completely.

But if the Democratic party continues to move in a direction that I feel is extreme to the point that they no longer represent me... there comes a point where it no longer makes sense for me to give them my vote.

If the Democratic party can take my vote for granted, than I am part of the problem. The Democratic candidate, and the Democratic party, have the responsibility to earn my vote. They don't have to agree with me completely... but they do have to listen, they have to thoughtfully consider multiple sides of complex issues, and they have to refrain from insulting voters. I will not vote for another Hillary Clinton.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Sat 6 Apr, 2019 02:45 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
If a two party system is going to function as a democracy, the parties have to represent the voters.

As a practical strategy, one has to select from the menu of choices available.

This rejection of "good" because it isn't "perfect" has the result of keeping the bad. Not sure how people can't recognize this, after the 2016 election.

revelette1
 
  2  
Sat 6 Apr, 2019 02:45 pm
@maxdancona,
Fine then, don't complain about Trump being president.

At the end of primary, Hillary won for whatever reason. It was between her and Trump, democrat or republican. Choosing a green or not voting was the same as choosing Trump. It was just the reality in 2016.
Lash
 
  -1  
Sat 6 Apr, 2019 02:52 pm
@DrewDad,
You ordered off the menu, got some half-assed burned crap. Send that **** back to the kitchen and demand your money back.

That’s what I’m doing.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 6 Apr, 2019 03:03 pm
@revelette1,
First of all, Trump won because Hillary was a horrible candidate. The approval ratings of Trunp were low throughout the election. Most people didn't vote for Trump because the liked Trump, they voted because they disliked Hillary more.

Second of all, Hillary didn't win the primary for "whatever reason", she won because the ideological left ordained it. I am not talking about Bernie, they pushed out viable candidates to keep any decent candidate from even running.

They are doing the same thing now with Joe Biden.

I voted for Hillary in 2016. I did it resenting the political mechanations that put me in that position.

The Democrats used up that excuse in 2016. Now stop stacking the deck and give me a good candidate.
 

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