oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 11:15 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
1) Israel is an occupying power and dominates the Palestinians militarily and economically. This gives them the ability, and the responsibility to move toward peace.

Perhaps. But that is not unlimited.


maxdancona wrote:
They are choosing not to move toward peace.

Only because, having tried over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, the only thing that Israel has ever gotten for their trouble is attacks, lies, and slander.

Enough is enough. Israel has more than fulfilled any obligation they've had to seek peace.


maxdancona wrote:
2) Israel depends on the US militarily, politically and to a large extent economically. The US is also paying a price for its unbending support of Israel. This means that the US has a right to tell Israel to behave itself.

You are mistaken. Israel does not depend on our aid.

We are not paying any price that I can see for our stand against anti-Semitism.


maxdancona wrote:
3) Israel has to make a choice on whether it is going to either pursue a fair two state solution, a one state solution where the Palestinians get an equal vote in a democracy, or whether it is going to complete ethnic cleansing.

There are more options than just that. For instance, a two-state solution can be based on 1967 borders, or the Palestinian state can be composed of some tiny little Bantustans.


maxdancona wrote:
5) Israel is committing acts that drive it away from peace, including the continued building of settlements in occupied territory. This is not only against international law, it is also against US interests. They are not being a good ally.

There are a whole slew of problems with this one.

First, settlement construction does not drive Israel away from peace. If Israel ever negotiated something that handed more land over to the Palestinians, any settlements on that land could simply be withdrawn.

Second, a halt to settlement construction is something that the Palestinians are supposed to trade for at the negotiating table, not get for free before negotiations even happen.

Third, a lot of the supposed settlement construction is on land that everyone agrees would go to Israel as part of any agreement based on 1967 borders. (Though it is true that some of the construction is on contested land.)

Fourth, since the Palestinians have proven unwilling to accept 1967 borders, there is no reason why Israel can't keep the land and use it as they see fit.

Fifth, the whole Palestinian fuss over settlement construction is a sham to begin with. They refused to negotiate with Mr. Olmert for years without caring that settlement construction was continuing while they delayed. The Palestinians only started complaining about settlement construction when Mr. Netanyahu took office because they needed a new excuse for their continuing refusal to negotiate.

Sixth, Mr. Obama bought into the Palestinians' settlement nonsense when he first took office, and he convinced Israel to halt settlement construction for 10 months so that the Palestinians would come and negotiate. The Palestinians still refused to come and negotiate even when settlement construction had been halted.


maxdancona wrote:
6) Israel has no excuse for the bad things it is doing. Israel blames all of its misdeeds on actions of the Palestinians.

Israel is not doing any bad things or committing any misdeeds.


maxdancona wrote:
7) Israel is being politically stupid. Up until now, Israel has received deep, unquestioning, bipartisan support. Now they are swinging to the right, and they are jumping in to bed with the Republican party. This means instead of receiving near 100% support from US policy makers, they will be receiving 50% (often hotly contested).

The growing anti-Semitism in the Democratic Party is not Israel's fault. The Democrats need to purge themselves of anti-Semites.


maxdancona wrote:
7) I don't understand how anyone who claims to be Christian and who has read the gospels can support an occupying force. Jesus lived under an occupation and was ultimately executed by an occupying force.

There is no occupying force. Occupation of Palestinian areas of the West Bank ended back in the 1990s when everyone was foolish enough to believe the Palestinians were interested in making peace.

Occupation of the Gaza Strip ended in 2004 when Ariel Sharon was attempting unilateral separation.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 11:15 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Israel has an obligation to the United States to move toward peace.

They have more than fulfilled that obligation.

The United States has an obligation to treat Israel fairly and justly. That means not blaming Israel for the fact that negotiations are now at an end.


maxdancona wrote:
We support them economically, militarily and politically... at a significant cost to us as a country and as taxpayers.

The cost is hardly significant.

And we get a lot of benefit from the ensuing regional stability.


maxdancona wrote:
Israel's behavior continues to be a thorn in the side of the US, it hurts our foreign policy initiatives in the Middle East and elsewhere and puts us in greater risk.

The supposed harm is overblown, and in any case, the problem is hardly Israel's behavior.


maxdancona wrote:
Israel continues to screw the US by moving away from peace.

Israel has only just started to move away from peace talks. The US has an obligation to Israel to be truthful about that.

At this point, Israel has done more than enough and has every right to move away from peace talks. The US also has an obligation to Israel to be understanding about this fact.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 11:28 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Worse, their actions put us in lower esteem with the rest of the world. It is as if you were besties with an asshole who keeps hurting people.....eventually people come to the point that they think less of you for having such a pal.

Anyone who would object to Jews being willing/able to defend themselves might not be someone whose esteem we care much about anyway.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 11:31 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
The US also has an obligation to Israel....


Israel has defied the past six administrations (at least), both Republican and Democratic, while taking for granted our unflinching support. There is a limit to our patience with Israel.

There is a reason that US public support for Israel is waning. Netanyahu made a calculated political move to manipulate US politics for his own domestic political gain. In doing so, he damaged the relationship of Israel with the US by making support for Israel (which used to be bipartisan) into a Republican wedge issue. He is moving our Israel policy into the realm of gay marriage and abortion.

The United States is a sovereign nation, we don't have a limitless obligation to Israel or to any other foreign country or government, particularly when they keep publicly defying us.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 11:40 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Israel has defied the past six administrations (at least), both Republican and Democratic, while taking for granted our unflinching support. There is a limit to our patience with Israel.

Oh? What is the nature of this alleged defiance?


maxdancona wrote:
There is a reason that US public support for Israel is waning.

US public support for Israel isn't waning.


maxdancona wrote:
Netanyahu made a calculated political move to manipulate US politics for his own domestic political gain.

He opposes the deal being negotiated with Iran. He was invited to speak about that opposition, and he accepted. No big deal.

I don't share his views on the matter, but that is OK. Reasonable people can disagree, and I do not begrudge his right to speak his views.


maxdancona wrote:
In doing so, he damaged the relationship of Israel with the US by making support for Israel (which used to be bipartisan) into a Republican wedge issue. He is moving our Israel policy into the realm of gay marriage and abortion.

Mr. Netanyahu is not responsible for the growing seed of anti-Semitism in the Democratic Party.

The Democrats are going to have to clean their own house.


maxdancona wrote:
The United States is a sovereign nation, we don't have a limitless obligation to Israel or to any other foreign country or government.

Our support for Israel is not because of any obligation. We support them because they are our friends and allies.

And the depths of our friendship are in fact pretty near limitless.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 11:45 am
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19820906&id=ncQwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VvsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6158,2483492&hl=en
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 11:50 am
@oralloy,
Do you accept that people can be critical of Israel without being anti-semitic? Do you accept that people can be critical of Feminism without being misogynistic?

(It amazes me how much your reasoning on this topic resembles the reasoning of Feminists on the feminism threads.)
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 12:04 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Do you accept that people can be critical of Israel without being anti-semitic?

Hypothetically, if they were truthfully and honestly criticizing Israel for actual wrongdoing.

However, "criticizing" Israel for fictitious wrongdoing is very much in the realm of anti-Semitism.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 12:27 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Do you accept that people can be critical of Israel without being anti-semitic? Do you accept that people can be critical of Feminism without being misogynistic?


Not if the fault finding is base on them defending themselves in the same manner as any other nation of earth would do.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 01:01 pm
@BillRM,
Right, like Syria.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 01:04 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Right, like Syria.

Assad was hardly defending anything when he brutally massacred innocent protesters.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 01:36 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Right, like Syria.

Assad was hardly defending anything when he brutally massacred innocent protesters.

The Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party in Syria is defending its regime there, much like the Zionists are defending their regime in Israel.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 01:39 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
The Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party in Syria is defending its regime there, much like the Zionists are defending their regime in Israel.

Only you could define Assad's massacres of peaceful demonstrators as a defensive action.

And no, nothing even remotely like Israel.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 04:26 pm
@oralloy,
I'm referring to the civil war that's being fought in Syria.

In regard to the demonstrations, demonstrators destroyed government buildings in Dera'a right at the begining of the protests in mid-March 2011.

The Zionist regime in Israel has also responded with lethal violence against similar Palestinian demonstrations.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 04:40 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
In regard to the demonstrations, demonstrators destroyed government buildings in Dera'a right at the begining of the protests in mid-March 2011.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


InfraBlue wrote:
The Zionist regime in Israel has also responded with lethal violence against similar Palestinian demonstrations.

Not similar at all. Palestinians are murdering thugs.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 06:28 pm
@oralloy,
Oralloy,

I have met Palestinians while I was visiting Jordan. They invited my family and I to dinner. They were great people who worked hard, loved their kids and went to church on Sunday. Yes, they resented the actions of Israel that evicted them from their ancestral home and made their lives so difficult, but this seems rather understandable.

This hardly makes them murdering thugs.

I don't know where you developed this blind hatred, Oralloy, but it isn't based on reality (and this latest post calling all Palestinians "murdering thugs" reminds me of the feminists who label all men who don't agree with them as rapists)..








BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 06:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
This hardly makes them murdering thugs.


Launching war rockets at random into population centrals, setting off bombs in crowds and so on make them murdering thugs.
RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 07:00 pm
@BillRM,
Are you sure its the Pals.. Ive read where some people think its Israel's equivalent of the CIA launching rockets when they think its time to move some of the Palistinian off their property for the Jewish settlers to steal.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 07:02 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I don't know where you developed this blind hatred, Oralloy,

I'm sick of Palestinians always refusing to make peace and always murdering innocent people. Plus all the lies and hatred directed at Israel. I've just had enough of it all.

And based on the recent election results, the Israeli people have finally had enough of it too.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 07:15 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
Ive read where some people think its Israel's equivalent of the CIA launching rockets when they think its time to move some of the Palistinian


What bullshit..........oh and the US was behind the 911 attacked also.
 

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