Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2015 10:18 pm
@maxdancona,
In fairness, the Israelis have some who are bloody minded about having the boundaries as at their height of expansion from history . Nevertheless, there have been many opportunites for the Palestinians to create their own state but their bloody minded leadership refused, preferring to slog it out to the bitter end . Now it seems the Israelis are hardening their attitude . Sad
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2015 10:22 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
So really there is no difference in the hard liners of Israelis and the hard liners of Palestinians, neither want the other to exist.
Yep . They both want the same real estate and there is only room for one, not two . It is discernible that there has been some softening of the hardliners in the Palestinians, but it might be too little too late as the Israeli hard liners seem to be gaining in strength .

Make no mistake though, to a muslim only muslim lives matter .
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 02:51 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I think that the people blowing up houses and killing civilians are doing something bad whether they are Israeli or Palestinian.
Wrong is wrong no matter which side you are on.

The Israelis only fire in self defense, and try to avoid civilian casualties.

The Palestinians deliberately try to murder innocent people in unprovoked acts of aggression.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 02:52 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Netanyahu just won an election by saying the Palestinians will never get a State under his watch. Seeing as he doesn't plan to let the Palestinians become part of Israel, I don't see much real difference between this view and what you say the Palestinian view is.

Israel has repeatedly and endlessly tried to peacefully negotiate 1967 borders. And the peace process had already been destroyed by the Palestinians and the Europeans by the time the Israelis ended their participation.

The Palestinians have done nothing but try to murder innocent people every chance they get.


maxdancona wrote:
I don't know what you think should happen to the Palestinians...

Leave the Palestinians confined in Area A.

When the Europeans extend recognition to a Palestinian state, Israel should finish building the Security Fence and declare it as their official border, annex all land to the west, and fully develop the E-1 Area. East of the Fence, Israel should recapture Area B.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 02:52 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
So really there is no difference in the hard liners of Israelis and the hard liners of Palestinians,

The Israelis repeatedly and endlessly tried to make the peace process work, and are only quitting now because the peace process has already been destroyed by the Palestinians and the Europeans.

The Palestinians repeatedly sabotaged the peace process from the beginning, and have never done anything other than run around murdering innocent people.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 09:38 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
The Palestinians repeatedly sabotaged the peace process from the beginning, and have never done anything other than run around murdering innocent people.


Don't forget teaching their children to want Jews dead, and use Islam for the reason.And Pallywood spreading propaganda by staging incidents with Palestinians dressed as Israeli soldiers. Or pictures of severely wounded people seen walking around later in the same film.

Also photo shopping cluster bombs over Palestinians that never happened.


Quote:
Pallywood: A History


Quote:
The term “Pallywood” refers to the staging of scenes by Palestinian journalists in order to present the Palestinians as hapless victims of Israeli aggression. They are able to succeed in this endeavor in large part due to the credulity and eagerness of the Western press to present these images, which reinforce the image of the Palestinian David struggling valiantly against the overpowering Israeli Goliath. Pallywood has led to astonishing lapses in Western journalistic standards in which badly staged scenes regularly appear on the news as “real events.” This page attempts to outline how such lapses could have come about, producing the current situation.


http://www.theaugeanstables.com/reflections-from-second-draft/pallywood-a-history/
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 11:41 am
@Ionus,

Quote:
Make no mistake though, to a muslim only muslim lives matter .


This sentence of yours kind of says it all. But at least you admit to the main premise.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 11:55 am
@revelette2,
There have been repeated statements from Islamists about taking over the world, killing infidels....they are even killing each other in yet another attempt to wipe out the shia . They have turned on the Palestinians in camps under ISIL control . They are happy to strap explosives onto children . Perhaps I should have said if lives matter at all to them, then it is only Muslim lives .
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 12:10 pm
@Ionus,
No, your problem (one of many I am sure) you do not preface your statements with words such "hardliners" or "militant Muslims" words of that sort. There are moderate Muslims who have spoken out against those actions. Instead you just say "Muslims" or "Islamist."

At one time, different sects of Christianity were violent towards each other. I am hopeful this violence between different sects of Muslims are in the last stages of being played out. All things are possible.

Nevertheless, there are Palestinians who are desirous of peace and having their own state beside Israel; just like there are those in Israel who lost the election who are desirous of Palestinians having their own state of Israel for the sake of Israel.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 12:24 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
Instead you just say "Muslims" or "Islamist."
They are allowed to lie to the enemy (thats us) , and are allowed to deny they are Muslim . What percentage do you think are radical Islamists ?
Quote:
At one time, different sects of Christianity were violent towards each other.
for hundreds of years, including the 30 yrs war . You could argue Ireland is still doing it .
Quote:
I am hopeful this violence between different sects of Muslims are in the last stages of being played out. All things are possible.
Well, one of your many problems is you are imaging things going away that simply will not . Suppose the good guys beat ISIL . How many will go underground and pop up as suicide bombers like in Iraq and Afghanistan ? How long will this drag out for, even if there is a decisive victory over ISIL ?

Another one of your many problems is the idea that you are a better person because you think you are helping what you perceive to be the underdog . Your support is making it worse by encouraging Palestinians to keep going the way they are...rocket attacks on civilians . But you dont care about anyone else, just so long as you feel important and righteous . Let the Palestinians suffer, you are behind them all the way !
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2015 01:08 pm
Quote:
But you dont care about anyone else, just so long as you feel important and righteous . Let the Palestinians suffer, you are behind them all the way !


You nailed it. But you forgot that these people blame the West for all these problems when they originated with Islam itself. And Islamic imperialism makes colonialism look like childs play.



0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 08:17 am
@Ionus,
You really are negatively cynical, not to mention thinking you can dig inside my physic over the internet.

The reason I said there are people who are for the two state in both places (Palestine/Israel) was because the last election revealed it for Israel and the Palestinians revealed it when they sought the UN to become a State. Going by those facts, there are Palestinians who have more on their minds than just wiping Israel off the map as the too often used phrase goes and there are those in Israel who support Palestinians having their state and not making any more settlements as was expressed by the liberals in the last Israeli election. For me, it was eye opening as I didn't even know there was liberals in Israel until I read it on international news on the internet.

As for sleeper cells and IS, I really wasn't talking of that, but more of nations who fight because of the long standing differences between Shiite and Sunnis such as what is happening right now in Yemen and what has been happening for eons in Iraq and Iran and so fourth. Surely as more of the younger generations get more global so to speak, they will be begin to see a better way to exist than fighting over religion. That may be a bit pie in sky, but I don't see why it couldn't happen someday. I thought it had a chance during Arab Spring, but it didn't work out too well. However, at least the seed is there.

Moreover, Muslims are not the only ones who have people who are militants, in the US we have more Christian militants who have actually committed or attempted to commit crimes than Muslims though it does not get the same sensational news coverage.
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 09:49 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
You really are negatively cynical
Yes . I know something of war . To subject the Palestinian people to any more is immoral . The power is with Israel . Go with the flow and less people get hurt .
Quote:

it was eye opening as I didn't even know there was liberals in Israel until I read it on international news on the internet.
They've been there since the very beginning but were shouted down whilst Israel was fighting for survival . Now they are growing stronger .
Quote:
in the US we have more Christian militants who have actually committed or attempted to commit crimes than Muslims
I doubt that . Unless you mean only Palestine ? But you dont have Christians that fire 3 rockets per day at civilians for years do you ?
Quote:
they will be begin to see a better way to exist than fighting over religion
Nothing I have seen in my life leads me to believe wars will stop any time soon . 75,000 years of human conflict...we have been fighting since our origin .
Quote:
That may be a bit pie in sky, but I don't see why it couldn't happen someday.
I certainly hope so and at least you are aiming high, but for every day there isnt a solution more Palestinians will suffer . I say give into the Israelis and move them to other countries so they can start a new life .
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 09:52 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
not to mention thinking you can dig inside my physic (psyche ?) over the internet.
My apologies . That should have been more generic and not just you .
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 10:15 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Yes . I know something of war . To subject the Palestinian people to any more is immoral . The power is with Israel . Go with the flow and less people get hurt


Giving a robber your money is safer as well, but it is not an answer that is fair to the one who is robbed.

Quote:
I doubt that . Unless you mean only Palestine ? But you dont have Christians that fire 3 rockets per day at civilians for years do you ?


No I was speaking of in the US, which is why I said in the US. (duh) I said this in response to your justifying yourself in saying all Muslims and then giving examples (not just in Israel) of Muslims and violence. (go back and read the exchange it is there)I pointed out that in the US Christian militants has been on rise as well, yet we don't just say Christians, but Christian militants. As an example: It is an example of right wing hate groups, but nevertheless the point is about the same.

‘Patriot’ Terrorist Frames Muslims With Quran Bomb

Quote:
I doubt most people are aware but over the past six years, “radical right wing” actors have committed an act of terrorism on “average every 34 days” in our country, per a recently released report by the Southern Poverty Law Center. We are talking from a bomb placed at a Planned Parenthood office in Wisconsin in 2012 to three people killed at a Jewish Community Center in Kansas in 2014 by a man entrenched in right-wing hate groups.


And while the threat of Muslim-related terrorism attracts headlines, per a 2014 report, only 37 Americans have been killed by such terrorism since 9/11. Meanwhile, in just the last six years, 63 Americans have been killed in the United States by people connected to right-wing hate groups.


But these statistics mean little to those like Sibley who believe that America needs to “wake up” to the threat of Muslim violence, an expression I have seen on numerous anti-Muslim websites. My fear though is that with more Muslim bashing expected in the coming presidential election from some on the right, we may see even more Sibleys who would literally sacrifice other Americans to achieve their goal of inspiring anti-Muslim bigotry.


Quote:
I certainly hope so and at least you are aiming high, but for every day there isnt a solution more Palestinians will suffer . I say give into the Israelis and move them to other countries so they can start a new life .


Already answered in the first paragraph, plus it would not work in any case, no Arab/Muslim would stand for it nor would most western countries besides maybe the US.

clymid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 01:35 pm
Quote:
"I knew that what I had discovered was very significant, and I decided to conduct another examination. I went to Al-Azhar [considered the most important Islamic academic institution]. There I searched for the original interpretation of the Quran before it was politicized and it turns out that, indeed, I was correct. The land of Israel belongs to the Jews. I went up 15 flights of stairs to the library, and I went in to see the most senior sheikh in Al-Azhar.

"'Is it true that the land belongs to the Jews?'" she asked. The sheikh fell silent.


http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=24603
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 02:03 pm
@clymid,
Religious mythologies are poor justifications for the arrogation of land and the discrimination and oppression of the peoples therein.

The land belongs to the peoples that inhabit the land.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 03:02 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Religious mythologies are poor justifications for the arrogation of land and the discrimination and oppression of the peoples therein.

The land belongs to the peoples that inhabit the land.


Reread your last sentence above, and you'll see that the Israelis are doing just that, since they inhabit land after winning a war in 1967. That's really how the world evolved - land changed inhabitants after wars; declared wars, undeclared wars, or wars of attrition. And, the Israelis are not on the land based on religion; they are on the land based on tribal identity, aka, Hebrews. Notice that Jewish cemeteries today still are titled "Hebrew Cemetery." No one is claiming that in American history Europeans took over Native American land because Native Americans had a different religion. It was all based on tribal identity. The Europeans were just the modern version of the pagan tribes that plotzed down in different parts of Europe in the early middle ages - Goths, Visigoths, Franks, etc.
clymid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 03:30 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Religious mythologies


Tell that to Islamic radicals, I bet they will stop after they know that.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2015 07:45 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
No I was speaking of in the US, which is why I said in the US. (duh)
Yes, I KNOW that and I was referring to them to...(double duh right back at ya)

Quote:
we don't just say Christians, but Christian militants
Do a high percentage of Christians all around the world support terror ? I think Islam has the lead .

Quote:
And while the threat of Muslim-related terrorism attracts headlines
Only Israeli responses attract headlines . Palestinian rocket attacks are boring, being 3 per day on average .

Quote:
no Arab/Muslim would stand for it
Then they take responsibility for what happens to them .
0 Replies
 
 

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