Why I'm a feminist.

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
I'm a feminist because asking men not to treat women like dirt means women are beaten down, given death threats and rape threats.

Why would you expect that. The initial post was rather belligerent".

Imagine how Izzy or Setanta would react to a similar thread entitiled "Why I'm a creationist."

You appreciate irony do you? Looks like you don't understand it. You have been given evidence that women who campaigned for Jane Austen to be put on a banknote were subject to rape threats up to 50times an hour. No one who believes in evolution threatens to rape creationists.

The fact is you don't mind if women are threatened with rape, you mind them complaining about it.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

You appreciate irony do you? Looks like you don't understand it. You have been given evidence that women who campaigned for Jane Austen to be put on a banknote were subject to rape threats up to 50times an hour. No one who believes in evolution threatens to rape creationists.

The fact is you don't mind if women are threatened with rape, you mind them complaining about it.

Izzy, I strongly object to anyone threatening women with rape for any reason, especially as part of an internet argument. I don't deny that it happens. It does happen and it is inexcusable.

Just to be clear your assertion that women in anonymous internet arguments are threatened with rape is correct. Your judgments about me are wrong (and unfounded).

I am looking for a reasonable discussion. I have no problem agreeing with you when you are right.

1 Reply

@TheSubliminalKid,

Your double negative came out poorly. My point is that the men I know never say things like that. Of course I don't know all men, but the idea that men are routinely saying things like "she's asking for it" strikes me as a sexist cliché...

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

ossobuco wrote:

courteous discussion

Hmmmm... That'd be nice.

Can we agree that there are many different types of feminism / feminists?

there are as many types of feminism as there are women. It is not a one size fits all definition. I know many women who self-identify as feminists. I don't think any of them agree 100% on the definition. What it means to each woman is very personal, based very much on her own life experience - and the experience shared with her by other women.

TheSubliminalKid has provided her reasons for using the word to self-identify as a feminist.

Some of her reasons may resonate for other people who also self-identify as feminists. They may also be areas of concern for people who are not comfortable self-identifying as feminists.

My reasons for self-identifying as a feminist may overlap in some areas with TheSubliminalKid's. The areas where I differ don't mean I disagree with her experience/reasons - they simply reflect my experience.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

No, but I really don't get to places such as bars and other such places. I simply have no reason to think she made it up.

1 Reply

@TheSubliminalKid,

Quote:

But it's not sexist to quite literally equal women just to their "legs" and "ass".

I never equated women to their legs. Read my post and try again.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Well, those people saying this are stupid. But not all men are saying this.

3 Replies

@ehBeth,

I happen to agree with 90% of the OP or so. I could nitpick the parts which I disagree with but I don't see much value in that. I was just saying to Max that taking "feminism" to mean one single philosophy is a crude approximation, and that if he wants to have a civil discussion with a feminist, maybe he wants to avoid such generalizations.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

I get your point, women admire men and their bodies in this age (maybe always, just not as openly)just as much as men admire women and their bodies. I have never really understood the big hang up with just admiring someone's looks. To an extent I get it, people don't go on about how old and haggard some older male actors or politicians are nearly as much as they do women.

0 Replies

@revelette2,

Well, sexism would be a possible reason for making things like that up. But I am ready to accept that it gets said by many men, just not the men I happen to hang out with.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Good enough, not all men are the same either.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Well, those people saying this are stupid. But not all men are saying this.

http://usvsth3m.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/vlLoRZl.jpg

No but TOO MANY MEN ARE.

Someone "calling all men rapists" (which by the way, NOBODY is doing) isn't as bad as rape, sexual assault etcs.

You're really not understanding the situation.

Every woman, at some point, has felt scared of sexual assault/rape, etc.

I mean, imagine this.

Imagine you get thrown into prison, for something small, or you look like the actual criminal, or something along those lines. Either way, you're in prison.

Now, you know that people who are new to prison, the guys that aren't these butch, tattooed "could kill you with a look" guys are often made into "bitches" through anal rape, and the like.

You'd be scared of that happening.

Of course statistically you KNOW that not all of these are going to be the guy that wants a bitch, you know that it's very unlikely that all of them want to force you into bed.

But a small handful of them will.

You don't know who it is.

You don't know if it's the guy you're eating lunch with of the guy next to you in the shower, or your cellmate.

You'd be understandably scared.

This is how women feel every day.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

A difference of opinion does arouse emotions in women. No one can come to the truth without the quoting of the bible. Gods truth.

John 17:17-19
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
(NKJ)

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

the idea that men are routinely saying things like "she's asking for it" strikes me as a sexist cliché...

it's the reality - in my life experience

as long as I can recall, one of the first things many men (and some women) do if they hear about a sexual assault is to try and determine what a person did to put themselves in the situation which allowed them to be assaulted - where were they? what were they doing? what were they wearing? how were they behaving? and nearly invariably - it doesn't matter what is said, the response has been "well, she asked for it".

A surprising number of women/men also blame themselves for the assaults - for what are really stupid reasons. I say stupid because I've done the same thing - blamed myself for being assaulted for really stupid reasons.

Things have changed very recently in Toronto because of the Jian Ghomeshi situation. I hope it is more than a superficial change.

http://rabble.ca/news/2014/11/antonia-zerbisias-how-beenrapedneverreported-became-movement

Quote:

But the more they asked, the greater the remembered pain, the shame, the years of self-flagellation over my having been so stupid, so trusting, so unheeding of my mother's incessant warnings about what can happen to innocent girls who are not always on their guard, who drink from glasses they have not closely monitored, who go out alone, who wear low-cut blouses.

If only I had listened, I told myself, blaming myself. Again..

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Most of us feminists on this thread aren't radical feminists, just ordinary ones (equality). Some women and some men apparently are ordinary feminists without calling themselves that because of the taint on the word feminist from views of the radical ones who get in the news. Max has said he doesn't like feminism period, somewhere in the last few pages.

Meantime, Max, you paint us ordinary feminists on this thread, of whatever gender, as an echo chamber, as if we are 'pods' who didn't come to our views on our own, usually via personal experience over years.

I've no interest myself in changing others views, including yours, Max. You make your views clear, and to me, that is that. I post to state my own views in discussions. Sometimes on some matters, I reevaluate those views, working them out again out as I do so, maybe even after a thread has long gone into thread hibernation. Sometimes, on other matters, having held my views a long time, based on life observations, the views are essentially immutable.

On the matter of feminism vs. humanism, Max, many of us feminists are humanists. I get it that you differ.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Izzy, I strongly object to anyone threatening women with rape for any reason, especially as part of an internet argument. I don't deny that it happens. It does happen and it is inexcusable.

Just to be clear your assertion that women in anonymous internet arguments are threatened with rape is correct. Your judgments about me are wrong (and unfounded).

I am looking for a reasonable discussion. I have no problem agreeing with you when you are right.

So if you accept it happens why do you take issue with the Kid's opening statement?

Quote:

I'm a feminist because asking men not to treat women like dirt means women are beaten down, given death threats and rape threats.

She didn't say all men do this, they don't. If she had said that I'd have a problem with it. The fact that two prominent women received rape threats just for campaigning for Jane Austen shows she's right. Women are beaten down, given death threats and rape threats just for campaigning for equality.

Now we agree it happens maybe we shouldn't shoot the messenger.

You seem to have a problem about taking things personally, when someone talks about something that happens to women there's absolutely no suggestion it's all men who are doing it.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

"Hello, 999, what's your emergency?"

"I need the police, a man has just broken into my house and he's stealing my things."

"What? That's awful. I'd never do that, nobody I know would ever do that. Most men wouldn't steal things, I can't believe you're saying all men do this. Stop being sexist please."

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Of course Olivier, anyone's personal association with term "feminism" is subjective.

That being said, the term feminism is part of our culture. It pops up in viral videos, in discussions about dating and social interactions. More importantly the general narrative that men victimize women impacts social policy and political discussions. Sometimes this impact is good, sometimes it is bad.

My real objection to feminism is perfectly illustrated in this thread.

1. The original poster made a bold prediction that people here would personally attack her in a misogynistic way.

2. This didn't happen.

3. I pointed this out as a point of fact. Rather than accept that this was wrong, Germlat doubled down and made up fictional attacks to go with the original narrative.

4. The original poster then made up additional fictional claims to back up her original narrative.

5. When I pointed this out, I was (ironically) attacked personally (I think the term used was "ignorant prig").

The reason I oppose feminism is once you have an ideology where a narrative is more important than facts, it does more harm than good. I questioned this narrative in a reasonable and respectful way, and you see what happened.

I am strongly in favor of respect for women and equality. I particularly want my daughter to have equal rights and to be safe and respected.

I also want my daughter to be open-minded and respectful to people who disagree with her. This means not being so overtaken with an ideology that you can't bear to be questioned.

This is the reason I don't like the term "feminism".

2 Replies

@ehBeth,

I gather this is a very North American "culture war" about guilt and sex and rape. One can see it being played here all the time. Blaming the victim is not considered ok in Europe and it is not a significant public phenomenon, as far as I can see.

The statement I took issue with was different: it was that men (e.g. at a bar) would routinely say about women wearing sexy clothes that "she's looking for it". I found that rather vulgar.

2 Replies

@ossobuco,

Quote:

Most of us feminists on this thread aren't radical feminists, just ordinary ones (equality). Some women and some men apparently are ordinary feminists without calling themselves that because of the taint on the word feminist from views of the radical ones who get in the news. Max has said he doesn't like feminism period, somewhere in the last few pages.

Maybe Max is put off by the same people that those women who don't want to self-identify as feminists are put off by?

1 Reply

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