Potty-Mouthed Princesses Drop F-Bombs for Feminism by FCKH8.com

That is your problem to sort out for yourself.

Are you saying that everyone you consider a feminist takes one side on these issues and that everyone you don't consider a feminist takes the other? Or are you allowing for feminists of different stripes to disagree about them?

Thanks! I'll listen to it later today.

No Beth - clearly feminism is the problem.

hehehehe

In my experience, women who don't identify as feminist are bothered by the critique of gender roles much more than by legal or professional equality, which they often embrace as a matter of course. I mean women comfortable with some gender roles, who expect from men (and singularly from their own man) some behaviours that they don't expect from women, and vice versa. Example: women who like to wear sexy lingery and are perfectly okay with seeing their girl friends in sexy lingery, but wouldn't like to see their man (or any man) wearing sexy lingery.

There is an ideology, a set of ideas, that many of us associate with the word "feminism". These ideas include restrictions on sexual and artistic expression and a narrative that views a wide variety of social norms according to narrative of men oppressing women.

There is a backlash to this set of ideas from men and women alike. The people who dislike these ideas tend to be the people reject the term "feminism".

In truth, I don't think that the term "feminism" is very important. I don't really care what it applies to.

That being said, calling myself an "anti-feminist" seem to be a pretty effective way to express the idea that I object to this ideology.

Since you agree that all of us are now "feminists" according to the 1970's Websters dictionary definition, and since the people pushing this ideology that I am uncomfortable with call themselves "feminists", it seems that calling my self an "anti-feminist" in a modern context is as good a way as any to make this distinction.

After all, words change meaning and using the currently understood meaning for any given word in a specific context is not unreasonable. I call myself a democrat (that is a lower-case 'd' democrat) even though I don't support a pure democracy. And I call myself a "liberal" in an American context even though I don't meet the European definition by any stretch of the imagination.

There is an ideology, a set of ideas, that many of us associate with the word "feminism". These ideas include restrictions on sexual and artistic expression and a narrative that views a wide variety of social norms according to narrative of men oppressing women.

There is a backlash to this set of ideas from men and women alike. The people who dislike these ideas tend to be the people reject the term "feminism".

In truth, I don't think that the term "feminism" is very important. I don't really care what it applies to.

That being said, calling myself an "anti-feminist" seem to be a pretty effective way to express the idea that I object to this ideology.

Since you agree that all of us are now "feminists" according to the 1970's Websters dictionary definition, and since the people pushing this ideology that I am uncomfortable with call themselves "feminists", it seems that calling my self an "anti-feminist" in a modern context is as good a way as any to make this distinction.

After all, words change meaning and using the currently understood meaning for any given word in a specific context is not unreasonable. I call myself a democrat (that is a lower-case 'd' democrat) even though I don't support a pure democracy. And I call myself a "liberal" in an American context even though I don't meet the European definition by any stretch of the imagination.

The real problem is that by people pushing this ideology that I feel is unreasonable are actively shutting down reasonable discussion on important issues. They use themes of "woman's equality" in a cynical way to stifle debate.

Whether this is called "feminism" or not doesn't matter (although the people who are doing this sure call themselves "feminists"). If we are truly all feminists, than they should call themselves something different and I will be anti-that.

That's why I believe the "bad feminist" concept coined by Roxane Gay and brought up by Hinge / Annabel Crabb is useful: we're all imperfect equalitarians. We're all bad feminists, in the sense of imperfect ones. If 'perfect' or 'good feminist' means supporting the total erosion of all cultural gender differences.



Let's take "the Tumblr pictures that make Annabel Crabb sad" and try and understand what that girl is saying:


"Feminine" is what she wants to be, and I bet that "masculine" is what she wants her boyfriend(s) to be.

She is saying (me think): "I am attached to behavioral differences between men and women. I really enjoy these differences, I find them sexy and cool."

There's a magnetism between sharply-set gender types--between the femme fatale and the bad boy for instance--which you don't expect to find between two androgynes...

You've said this so many times in this thread, but despite repeated calls, you have declined to link to the feminist HQ web site that lists this ideology.

Your thinking is muddied. You don't like the term because you have a bunch of associations with it - but now you say don't think the term is very important, but you're going to label yourself anti-feminist because of your opposition to the ideas you associate with the term.

So you're about disassociating yourself from all the ideas grouped under feminism, like equal opportunity for your daughters? Or are you suggesting that 'feminism' doesn't embrace that goal?

Max states he supports women's rights, but he only says that so he can appeared reasonable. He's dishonest to the core, he's been through a messy divorce and has a problem with all women as a result. He's never happy, even after he got joint custody of his daughter he started this thread about shared custody.

http://able2know.org/topic/265599-1

He lied about being a single parent, it was not a mistake or a problem of semantics, but a deliberate lie designed to give a false impression. He is a liar.

I disagree with what you're thinking here. "Feminism" is a brand that has a positive image among many people in Western countries. Because of this, a small minority among feminists is trying to bully all other dictionary-definition feminists by denying them the usage of the feminist brand. I think it's important to say: "You are just presumptious bullies! Who elected you to be the sole stalwarts of feminism?"


I disagree. Your withdrawal into "I don't care what 'feminism' even means" empowers the bully minority among feminists by strengthening their grip on the feminist brand, which doesn't belong to them. I detest that. I think a more effective objection is to deprive the bullies of their feminist soap box by replying, "how dare you presume that you speak for feminism! Who elected you speaker of the movement?"


And if and when a new edition of Webster documents that the meaning of the word feminism has indeed changed in the direction you outlined, I will go along with that. Until then, I will act on the assumption that its meaning has not, in fact, changed.

Thank you.

" If 'perfect' or 'good feminist' means supporting the total erosion of all cultural gender differences."

But it doesn't. That's a bright red herring.
I saw the article, will have to read it again.

On high heels, I liked them as a teen though I rarely got to wear them, liked them at uni and rarely got to wear them, not a fancy life style, and in my post those school years, when I bought two pairs of the same wonderful high heels, I found out that they killed my feet. My metatarsals wanted to just curl away and die.
I learned to think of them as sculpture.

Later, somewhere in the 2000's, I got bored with all the high heels in the high end fashion reviews. Fads can get irritating. I think of the wearers as living taxi to taxi.

Feminism as a concept is still needed in many parts of the world.

I'm not dropping the word since some people in western cities get it.

I've seen an argument that feminism itself partially drives ISIL and it's ilk into paroxysms. They fear female equality and desparately try to force an ideology a millenium out of date onto the world.

Izzy, stop the personal attacks... or would you like me to make up a story based on your posts about what happened to the mother of your children?

Attacking someone else's personal life because you object to their opinions is the very definition of sleazy. I have never personally attacked you. Your behavior is reprehensible.


Everyone else here is having a fairly reasonable discussion.

I agree that most feminists support some gender roles. But I am not sure it's that explicit in the 'literature'. I've yet to read a strong arguement for some gender roles within a feminist worldview. Not that I read all the feminist books and blogs... Might have missed it. Basically, girly girls should be okay to tag themselves feminists, but many are worried. Maybe it would help if someone could articulate a feminist defence of girliness.

That makes sense, at least as one of the situations that drive them crazy making.
Women having equality being a wild concept. I can almost understand that, leaping.

I'm interested, voyeur-like, re what is in the minds of the people who travel there to become comfort (and obedient) wives.