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Potty-Mouthed Princesses Drop F-Bombs for Feminism by FCKH8.com

 
 
hingehead
 
  6  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2015 06:01 pm
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11024710_746554782127392_7203566446061832948_n.jpg?oh=e9cebdc0fe028e07ee6af714875de2e8&oe=5573F2A1&__gda__=1433606859_0be0923da4a5162f211c1322f4876a31
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 06:10 am
@hingehead,
Good read.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 07:37 am
@hingehead,
It works pretty well as a propaganda poster.
Thomas
 
  5  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 09:13 am
@maxdancona,
You sound as if you consider that a bad thing.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 09:36 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

You sound as if you consider that a bad thing.


Yes, I do consider it a bad thing Thomas. Dale Spender is pushing an ideology by setting it up as something that should not be questioned.

Getting people to turn off their ability to think critically is never a good thing.

This thread is a good example of people doing exactly that, anyone who even questions the basic precepts of feminism is shouted down with personal attacks. There is no ability to respectfully consider the other side of any issue related to feminism.

The message of this poster is "If you don't agree with me about feminism, you have a problem". There is no room for discussion. There is no desire to look at or understand other points of view. There is no acknowledgement or respect for differing opinions. There is no call for questioning or independent thought.

When someone says "What's your problem?" they are shutting down discussion and saying they don't want to listen to anyone doesn't agree with them.

Do you really think this is a reasonable message?



Thomas
 
  5  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 10:06 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The message of this poster is "If you don't agree with me about feminism, you have a problem".

No, that's just your interpretation of the poster. The poster itself doesn't say that.

maxdancona wrote:
When someone says "What's your problem?" they are shutting down discussion and saying they don't want to listen to anyone doesn't agree with them.

How is it shutting down discussion? Just answer their question by telling them what your problem with feminism is, and you're in the middle of a discussion right there.

maxdancona wrote:
Do you really think this is a reasonable message?

Indeed I do.
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 10:18 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
How is it shutting down discussion? Just answer their question by telling them what your problem with feminism is, and you're in the middle of a discussion right there.

For example, I just tried to think of people who have said to me, "I am not a feminist". The first that came to my mind are friends of mine, a family of Missouri-Synod Lutherans. They would not have the slightest problem answering the poster's question. Their reply would be something like this: "We believe that human life begins at conception. Our main problem with feminism is that it promotes abortion and thereby the killing of hundreds of thousands of human lives per year."

So to reiterate: The authors of the poster asked a reasonable question, to which my Missouri-Synod Lutheran friends could give a reasonable answer, which the authors of the poster could reasonably rebut in turn. That's not the cutting-off of a discussion. It's the start of one.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 11:23 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
The message of this poster is "If you don't agree with me about feminism, you have a problem".

No, that's just your interpretation of the poster. The poster itself doesn't say that.

On second thought, I think I'm going to retract this particular point. It's irrelevant to the rest of my argument. Also, it invites an extensive and unproductive argument I'm not interested in having. (Whether to interpret "what's your problem?" as "what psychopathological issues are you dealing with?" vs as "what's your problem with feminism?") So, consider it struck from the record.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 12:43 pm
@Thomas,
My problem with feminism is that in my experience it comes with a rather restrictive ideology. Many of the people who seem to me to represent feminism shut down discussion on the issues relating to women and respond to any legitimate questions on these issues with insults and accusations.

I don't care about terms very much...

A person who is willing to support both women's rights and men's rights has my respect. A person who is against rape but can see the issues about due process also has my respect. A person who can look objectively the real scientific problems with commonly thrown around rape statistics without calling people "rape apologists" also has my respect.

I support women's rights. I support pay equality and workplace fairness. I support a woman's right to choose. I support efforts to reduce rape and provide support for victims.

But I also support due process for people accused of rape, and I support custody rights for fathers. I support real scientific discussion about claimed rape statics and fairness in the response on campuses. And, I support artistic expression without censorship.

It is the latter list, and my impression (which I think is reasonably supported by people who call themselves feminists) that makes me uncomfortable calling myself a feminist.

And most of all, I support an open discussion on these issues without name calling or personal attacks.

That's my problem.
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 01:14 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I support women's rights. I support pay equality and workplace fairness. I support a woman's right to choose. I support efforts to reduce rape and provide support for victims.

If that is so, you're a feminist, whether you call yourself one or not.

maxdancona wrote:
But I also support due process for people accused of rape, and I support custody rights for fathers. I support real scientific discussion about claimed rape statics and fairness in the response on campuses. And, I support artistic expression without censorship.

Then you're a feminist who may disagree with some other feminists about these particular issues. I'm aware of a feminist idiot fringe, mostly in academia, whose members confuse being feminist with being anti-male, and who may be the persons you're thinking of when you hear the word "feminist". But nobody elected them to be gatekeepers. Nobody needs to listen to them if they claim that only people like themselves qualify as feminists --- and neither do you.

maxdancona wrote:
And most of all, I support an open discussion on these issues without name calling or personal attacks.

Come on. I have repeatedly called you a moral relativist, which is a strong pejorative coming from me. You have handled it just fine.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 01:55 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
If that is so, you're a feminist, whether you call yourself one or not.


I choose to not call myself a feminist, as is my right.

In my opinion the word "feminist", at least in the modern American context, is worse than meaningless (since people can ascribe a false meaning to the label). It seems to me that much of American feminism consists of White women (the second most privileged class in the history of the world) complaining about how they are portrayed in movies and the pressure they feel to wear high heals.

If you choose to call me a feminist, there isn't much I can do about it. In truth it doesn't much matter much. I believe what I believe no matter what label is slapped on me..

Just out of curiosity.... Since you have declared (against my wishes) that I am feminist, please tell me what I would have to do to leave the "feminist" designation. If I become pro-life would that do it? Or would I have to try to take away the right to vote?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 02:29 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Just out of curiosity.... Since you have declared (against my wishes) that I am feminist,

Who cares about your wishes in the matter? The meanings of American-English words are not up to you, nor up to me, nor up to any one individual. Rather, they are conventions among the entire set of American-English speakers, conventions that are documented in usage dictionaries. (Which, we may hope, do a competent job at it.) In particular, according to Webster's Dictionary, a feminist is someone who believes that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities, or who participates in organized activity to support women's rights and interests. (Or both, of course.)

maxdancona wrote:
please tell me what I would have to do to leave the "feminist" designation. If I become pro-life would that do it? Or would I have to try to take away the right to vote?

You would have to start supporting some legal or social distinctions based on sex. Taking away the right to vote would do it. Taking away the right to abort embryos arguably would not, because abortion is arguably a liberty issue, not an equality issue.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 02:48 pm
@Thomas,
Hmm Thomas.

Consider the following political viewpoint.

- Women are equal to men and should be treated as such under the law.
- Abortion is murder and should be illegal in all cases.
- Workers should be paid according to the free-market. The government (including the courts) shouldn't interfere in any circumstance.
- Rape should be treated as a purely legal matter in the criminal courts. Colleges shouldn't have any part in adjudicating or punishing sexual crimes or misconduct.
- Marriage is between a man and a woman.

Would someone with these beliefs, in your view, meet the definition of a "feminist"?

Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 02:51 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Would this, in your view, meet the definition of a "feminist"?

Yes it would. And if your favorite women's-studies professor doesn't like it, that's her problem. She should take it up with Mr. Webster, or with the English language itself.

PS: This has nothing to do with my view. The position either matches the dictionary definition or it doesn't. I am either objectively right or objectively wrong about the match. My opinion is irrelevant to it either way.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 02:57 pm
@Thomas,
In that case, 95% of Americans are feminists including Tea Party Republicans!

Again, Thomas, you get credit for being logically consistent. I don't think this makes much sense considering the way the word "feminist" is commonly used in the US.(no matter what Mr. Webster says). Not many people would make the claim that Ted Cruz is a feminist.

I would be curious to know if the other people on this thread agree with you that that the belief system I describe qualifies as a "feminist" viewpoint.
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 03:09 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
In that case, 95% of Americans are feminists including Tea Party Republicans!

I agree that the word "feminism" is not very distinctive in America anymore. The feminists won. All remaining arguments concerning the rights of women are internal conflicts between feminist Americans of different flavors.

maxdancona wrote:
Not many people would make the claim that Ted Cruz is a feminist.

Neither would I. But then again, I also believe that if there was a way to disenfranchise women the way current voter-ID laws disenfranchise Blacks, Ted Cruz would push for a way to enact it.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 04:02 pm
@Thomas,
By that logic I suppose am a "feminist" the same way I am an "abolitionist". Don't you find it strange that one of these two words is still in common use, while the other is unused (and sounds rather archaic)?

If feminism is a settled issue in the US, then why are we still arguing about it?




Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 04:17 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
By that logic I suppose am a "feminist" the same way I am an "abolitionist". Don't you find it strange that one of these two words is still in common use, while the other is unused (and sounds rather archaic)?

Now that you bring it up, yes. Yes, I do.

maxdancona wrote:
If feminism is a settled issue in the US, then why are we still arguing about it?

Good question. I don't know the answer right now, but I'm curious. I'll talk to a real-life friend who considers herself a feminist activist, and is knowledgeable about the history of the movement.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 04:42 pm
@Thomas,
Language is an interesting thing.

Listened to a older radio interview with Gloria Steinem the other night. She talked about how she came to call herself a feminist. She'd gone to some meeting and people were protesting her attendance as she called herself a humanist and at the time (early 1970's?), that was a really divisive term. She switched to feminist and the protesters lost interest in her (that's a really potted precis of the whole story).


It's a longish interview 50+ minutes from maybe 2000/2002

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/writersandcompany/gloria-steinem-interview-1.2980379

best quote (and noted on the CBC page)


Quote:
"We were so occupied with trying to raise our daughters more like our sons that we probably are only now seeing how much we need to raise our sons more like our daughters - so that both of them can be whole people." - Gloria Steinem






Most Americans are now what would have been called feminists in the 1970's. Not many people blink at the thought of women going to university, of studying the sciences, of working etc. Whenever I see those "I don't need to be/don't want to be a feminist" memes I just laugh.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2015 04:59 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Whenever I see those "I don't need to be/don't want to be a feminist" memes I just laugh


The problem is what feminism has morphed into... there are real disagreements about things like

- "Affirmative consent" and what constitutes appropriate sexual behavior.
- Due process for accused rapists and at what point rape accusations can be questioned.
- What movies should be watched... (i.e. 50 Shades of Gray) and what music we should listen to (i.e. Blurred Lines).
- The custody rights of fathers.
- The general narrative of men oppressing women that is still applied to more and more areas of American society even now.
- The opposition to men's rights and to the idea that men may be disadvantaged by social conventions in any way.

Those of us who have problems with the word "feminism" as it is applied today are reacting to these issues. None of these have anything directly to do with equality for women.



 

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