Potty-Mouthed Princesses Drop F-Bombs for Feminism by FCKH8.com

@ossobuco,

Quote:

Feminism as a concept is still needed in many parts of the world.

I agree with this. You will not see me opposing the movement to stop child marriages in Afghanistan or programs to raise the economic well-being of women across cultures.

The issue is not good feminists vs. bad feminists, it is more the fact that the word "feminist" is a Rorschach test... particularly in the context of modern American society.

I would like to talk rationally about individual issues. There are many complex issues pertaining to things like artistic expression, acceptable sexual practices and responding to sexual violence that should be discussed openly with more than one perspective heard. Generally these discussions are quickly drowned out with personal attacks.

I don't these discussions happening.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

What literature? A lot of us have never read any but an article or two or seven or eight. I was a feminist in my own world (my father told me I could be anything I wanted to be) and don't need any articles.

Oh, wait.
I do remember liking Steinem, and probably still do.

On girly girls, this is new to me. One of my pals, the woman born in Estonia, like me, 1940 or +, arriving via Sweden (dp camp or similar) to LA, who must have known some english then (the family had some city property, then lost), landed at a major city high school. She was, as still was last time I saw her, dignified beautiful. Anyway, she had done some modeling jobs . I know it had not been anything 'using'. But she had attitude, knew she was beautiful.

No one more girly than her. In our comp anat class break, we (2 out of 3 women in large class, the other another question) would tear away to the cafeteria, fine in itself, but she always needed to go to the restroom to dab on her eye lashes, which made me late too. Never occurred to me to not wait.

Girly friend had a successful med illustration career, and children's book design drawings career.

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@ossobuco,

[img]I'm interested, voyeur-like, re what is in the minds of the people who travel there to become comfort (and obedient) wives.[/img]

This fascinates Mrs Hinge too. My interest is somewhat broader - instead of railing against the radicalisation of muslim youth in western countries why aren't we asking why they think travelling to the middle east to behead people (or be sex slaves to people who behead people) is an attractive option?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

There are many complex issues pertaining to things like artistic expression, acceptable sexual practices and responding to sexual violence that should be discussed openly with more than one perspective heard.

that ^ is pretty much the definition of real-life feminism in practice

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Maybe it would help if someone could articulate a feminist defence of girliness.

why do feminists have to defend girliness?

can't we just continue to be as girly or non-girly as we want to be?

1 Reply

@hingehead,

Well, I thought I asked that, but I'm easily confused.

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@hingehead,

I suppose ms. hinge doesn't want to get into it. Which I get.

On your further question, some of all of what is going on is freakier than movies.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

That's not my experience EhBeth.

Feminism in practice has its sacred cows. Anyone who questions them gets shot down... often in very personal terms (Izzy's responses in this thread are a good example of this).

Question the science of the "1 in 5" claim (and scientists do point out how questionable this claim is) and you are called a "rape apologist". Write a silly fictional depiction of a clearly consensual dominant/submissive relationship and there are calls for a boycott. Suggest that domestic violence claims are sometimes used to gain an advantage in divorce or custody hearings and you are said to support battering women.

I don't see much room for discussion or much tolerance for nuance. I certainly don't see much respectful discussion on these issues on Able2Know... nor do I see much real discussion in public.

I would be pleasantly surprised if you would show me a positive public discussion on men's rights among any people who identify themselves as feminists.

It is possible to support both women's rights and men's rights. But, you don't see that happening very much from people who call themselves feminists.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

It is possible to support both women's rights and men's rights. But, you don't see that happening very much from people who call themselves feminists.

that is not my experience

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Can you give an example among any public groups or prominent people identifying themselves as feminist?

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@ossobuco,

Sorry for the confusion Osso. Mrs Hinge is 'fascinated' (as in car crash) why young women want to join ISIL (a brand name for mysogyny and mysanthropy). While I find it dumbfounding I'm just as interested in why men want to 'join up'. So they can kill people without recourse? To express their anger at ? To fill a hole caused by ?

One day, someone who went and manages to change their mind and survive the repercussions will write of all that stuff. Till then I can only ponder.

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@maxdancona,

I hope it's viewable - this program (broadcast on Monday night) has several prominent feminists (including Germaine Greer) and all are supportive of men.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4177814.htm

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@hingehead,

With you and her on that. Maybe there is a shock element going on as a maneuver

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@hingehead,

The girls in question had a friend who had already gone there. Teenagers have always rebelled against authority, and teenage girls in particular like to stress how grown up they are.

A lot of women who wear the hijab say it stops them being objectified by men and makes sure they're respected. And we have no way of knowing what racism they may have experienced.

What better way of showing you're grown up by getting married and joining the struggle against the enemies of your religion.

I'm sure there's far more to it than that, but that's my take.

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@hingehead,

Quote:

One day, someone who went and manages to change their mind and survive the repercussions will write of all that stuff. Till then I can only ponder.

For Whom the Bell Tolls.

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@ehBeth,

I'm just trying to understand that girl and others like her, who say they are not feminist. The question asked to them was: what is your problem?

I think their 'problem' is that they are put off by, and even afraid of the feminist critique of traditional gender roles. You know, the idea that gender differences are an unfair, exploitative cultural imposition and should disappear, that we should be gender blind when raising our kids, these sorts of feminist ideas that go well beyond legal equality.

If a feminist thinker could deal 'fairly' with gender roles and integrate that in a gender equality perspective, feminism could become a more complete and coherent philosophy, and a more appealing one to those (like "the girl that makes Crapp sad") who remain strongly attached to some male-female differences. As it stands now, the critique of gender roles is pro forma, confusing and a bit facile, i think.

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@ossobuco,

I just wish I knew what to tell my kids (kids in general) about these things... As of now it looks very confusing.

1 Reply

@hingehead,

That's an interesting program, Hingehead/ One of the panelists, Julie Bishop, rejects the term "feminist".

I listened to that program. I fail to see where Germaine Greer is supportive of men's or acknowledges any place where social structures disadvantage men (i.e. custody or incarceration rates). There is a transcript, could you give me the quote about what you are talking about?

One of the panelists (Julie Bishop) rejects using the term "feminist" to describe herself. She prefers to follow her beliefs about equality between men and women without being defined by the feminist label.

I have yet to see a prominent feminist or feminist group who acknowledges the ways that society disadvantages men (i.e. custody rights or incarceration rates).

Can you give a specific example of this (either in the video you posted or elsewhere)?

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@maxdancona,

Julie Bishop doesnt like the label feminist but everything she does smells like feminist. She isn't married and has no children. She is the deputy leader of our 'republicans' which is a big clue why she rejects the label.

Greer loves men, if only for sex. Your plaintive whining about the repression of men is woefully self pitying from my perspective. Reminiscent of a slave owner bemoaning his 'nigras' getting uppity about any sort of human rights. Your inability to separate your personal grievances from more prevalent social inequities belittles the weight of any social commentry you offer.

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@hingehead,

Quote:

Julie Bishop doesnt like the label feminist but everything she does smells like feminist. She isn't married and has no children. She is the deputy leader of our 'republicans' which is a big clue why she rejects the label.

I respect Julie Bishop for this. Don't you?

That is exactly my point. The "feminist" label doesn't matter. It is what we believe and do and how we treat other people that are important. She is uncomfortable using the label "feminist" because of the associations it has for her, and she is leading a very successful life without the label.

Quote:

Greer loves men, if only for sex. Your plaintive whining about the repression of men is woefully self pitying from my perspective. Reminiscent of a slave owner bemoaning his 'nigras' getting uppity about any sort of human rights. Your inability to separate your personal grievances from more prevalent social inequities belittles the weight of any social commentry you offer.

Do you see what you are doing there? I am expressing my opinion clearly without attacking anyone else. In response you are making a personal attack, comparing me to a "slave owner". This is what happens when I question a sacred cow... rather than looking for a discussion about differences you are trying to shut down ideas you don't agree with. I wish you would see that this is not helpful to having an open rational discussion on any issue.

I am simply trying to explain why I choose to reject the feminist label even though I support gender equality and I support things that are traditionally associated with woman's rights (i.e. abortion rights, equal pay and supporting victims of domestic violence).

Many women, including Julie Bishop, take a similar position.

2 Replies

Potty-Mouthed Princesses Drop F-Bombs for Feminism by FCKH8.com

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