14
   

Fergusonj shooting, autopsy in, all shots from front

 
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 03:42 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I have addressed the fact that I think six bullets into the body of Brown, who essentially was stopped for jaywalking, SEEMS excessive.


The reason for the stop does seem justified--Brown and his friend were walking down the center line of the street.

But the shooting had nothing to do with the original reason for the stop. All of the eyewitnesses I've heard all describe an "altercation" or a "tussle" with Brown while the police officer was still in his car. One of them said it looked like they were arm-wresting. So there was some sort of physical confrontation going on, that may, or may not, have involved Brown going for the officer's gun, and may, or may not, have resulted in injury to the officer. No one who witnessed the scene could tell exactly what was going on between them.

But the shooting apparently occurred after the officer exited his vehicle, and he was seemingly not being physically attacked at that point. And the witness accounts differ in what transpired then. So a main issue is going to be whether Brown still posed a legitimate threat once the officer was out of his car with his gun drawn.

I think the video of the convenience store robbery, which does show Brown aggressively shoving the store clerk aside, may be relevant in revealing Brown's state of mind prior to his interaction with the police officer. The unlawful behavior in the store was followed by unlawful behavior walking down the center of the road, and a continuing belligerent attitude in not responding to the police order to get back on the sidewalk. And it's not clear just how belligerent and aggressive Brown might have then gotten with the officer while he was still in his car. Brown might have also feared being arrested, not for jaywalking, but for the strong-arm robbery he knew he had just been involved in, and that's a serious charge, and he may have panicked and become aggressive when the officer stopped and confronted him for something unrelated. So we really don't know what the officer found himself dealing with in a situation that seems to have rapidly escalated.

We haven't yet heard the officer's side of the story, nor has any forensic evidence yet been released that clarifies the events of the shooting. The police may have erred in allowing the media coverage to be so heavily dominated by only one side of the story--the community outrage over what they perceived to be the "execution" of another unarmed black male by a white cop. and the civil unrest and nightly dramatic clashes with law enforcement that then followed. But, the media had only one side to report because the police department didn't provide anything to counterbalance it. So coverage became all about racial tensions, and long-standing pent-up grievances with the police, and political jockeying, and less about whether this particular shooting was justified or not.

I'd much rather see this situation adjudicated in a court room than decided in the media, but I don't think that's going to happen, and I think the media will crap up the possibility of that happening. Simply the constant interviewing of eye witnesses by the media allows the witnesses to be influenced by each other's version of events which is already a contaminating factor. Eyewitness accounts are often unreliable, and having them listen to each other's versions of events would only make them more so.

I agree with you that we don't have enough information to make a judgment about whether this shooting was justified or not. But too many people in Ferguson seem to feel otherwise, they've already decided the police officer is guilty, and nothing short of his conviction is going to satisfy them. I can only wonder what will happen there if the Grand Jury doesn't hand down an indictment.

There is obviously considerable racial tension, and anger, and frustration in Ferguson, and this shooting was just the spark that caused it all to come to a head. Rather than just demonstrating in the streets, I hope the black population of Ferguson takes this as a wake-up call to vote, in order to better exert their influence in their community to effect change. Black voter turnout there is abysmally low, particularly in odd numbered years, but it's in odd numbered years when the municipal government there is elected. A community that's almost 70% black, shouldn't have predominantly white faces in it's municipal hall, or on it's school boards, or be so under-represented on its police force. I think substantially increased voter turnout would be one of the most positive outcomes of the activism this shooting has energized.

I'm glad that Al Sharpton has sent a similar message.
Quote:
‘Twelve percent turnout is an insult to your children’
08/18/14
By Steve Benen

The Rev. Al Sharpton, host of msnbc’s “Politics Nation,” spoke at the Greater Grace Church’s services yesterday, and addressed the crisis surrounding Michael Brown’s death from a variety of angles. Of particular interest, though, was one of Sharpton’s challenges to the community itself.

“Michael Brown is gonna change this town,” he said, before criticizing the paltry voting record on the area. “You all have got to start voting and showing up. 12% turnout is an insult to your children.”

That was not an exaggeration. The historical and institutional trends that created the current dynamic in Ferguson – a largely African-American population led by a largely white local government – are complex, but the fact that black voters haven’t been politically engaged has contributed to the challenges facing the community. In the most recent elections, turnout really was just 12%.

Patricia Bynes, a black woman who is the Democratic committeewoman for the Ferguson area, told the New York Times that last week’s developments may shake the complacency that too often shapes local politics. “I’m hoping that this is what it takes to get the pendulum to swing the other way,” Bynes said.

To that end, Ferguson residents have had an enormous amount of work to do over the last several days – mourn, grieve, protest, and recover, all while struggling through moments of violence – but haven’t forgotten about the importance of civic engagement in general, and voter registration in specific.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch published a piece over the weekend that included a striking detail (thanks to my colleague Laura Conaway for the heads-up).

Rev. Rodney Francis of the St. Louis Clergy Coalition pointed to voter registration tent at the scene. “That’s where change is gonna happen,” Francis said.

Debra Reed of University City and her daughter, Shiron Hagens, were working at the registration tent. They said they set it up on their own.

“We’re trying to make young people understand that this is how to change things,” Reed said.

Note, some Republican-led states have made voter-registration drives far more difficult in recent years – Florida, for example, has imposed harsh restrictions without cause – but no such hindrances exist in Missouri.

State GOP policymakers have taken steps to restrict voting rights and curtail early voting, but none of this should be seen as an excuse to discourage Ferguson residents from registering and participating. The kind of systemic changes many in the community crave can be achieved through the ballot box.

To repeat Sharpton’s message: “You all have got to start voting and showing up. 12% turnout is an insult to your children.”

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/twelve-percent-turnout-insult-your-children













giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 07:01 pm
Is six bullets too much??? Depends on the percieved threat of the officer. If you have just been beaten almost to unconsciousness and had an attempt to have your gun taken from you by a 6'4" 300lb man high on drugs and now he coming at you knowing you may not survive another attack you shoot him and keep shooting till he stops moving. And it appears only ONE bullet killed him. The other 5 did not stop him.
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 07:10 pm
@giujohn,
Quote:
6'4" 300lb man


You are right. People here think his color makes him the victim. They don't put much thought into it, but that is how they think.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 07:19 pm
@giujohn,
giujohn wrote:
Is six bullets too much??? Depends on the percieved threat of the officer. If you have just been beaten almost to unconsciousness and had an attempt to have your gun taken from you by a 6'4" 300lb man high on drugs and now he coming at you knowing you may not survive another attack you shoot him and keep shooting till he stops moving. And it appears only ONE bullet killed him. The other 5 did not stop him.
He needed better STOPPING POWER.
He probably only used little 9mm; irresponsible.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 07:25 pm
@coldjoint,
In my book he is not a victim. He is a man who commited 2 felonies in 15 minutes who dispalyed a wanton disregard for any atuhority or for the safety of himself or others. He was a loose cannon looking for trouble; a walking advertisement for tragedy and disaster.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 07:27 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
In most departments you dont get to choose your weapon or ammo...so there is no irresponsibility on the part of the officer. Also there is a famous case of an offender who was shot point blank in the heart with a .357 magnum and still had enough oxegenated blood and adrenaline to run down 2 fights of stairs and 50 feet before collapsing.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 07:31 pm
Quote:
NOW THERE ARE FOUR SOURCES: Officer Darren Wilson Suffered Fractured Eye Socket
(One Source To The Washington Post) - See more at: http://im41.com/archives/98187#sthash.3HgsjN6A.zug8Jidy.dpuf
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 07:44 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
But the shooting apparently occurred after the officer exited his vehicle, and he was seemingly not being physically attacked at that point. And the witness accounts differ in what transpired then. So a main issue is going to be whether Brown still posed a legitimate threat once the officer was out of his car with his gun drawn.

How do the eye witness accounts differ on that question? So far, I have heard three witness accounts. They disagree on details, but they all agree that Brown was no threat when Wilson fired his final shots. The three eye witnesses agreed that Brown was 20 feet away from Wilson. Two agree that Brown's hands were in the air, the third didn't see it because he was on the way from his window to his door. Once he looked out the door, he saw Brown clutching his torso, then Wilson firing the last two shots and Brown collapsing. Hence, on the point that you rightly call a main issue, the eye witness accounts don't differ at all.

To be sure, contradicting accounts do exist. One comes from the press conference Wilson's boss held. Another comes from one "Josie" who anonymously called into a talk radio station to corroborate the chief's story. But none of them are eye witnesses.

So as best I can see, the eye witnesses do not differ on the pertinent facts. All the contradicting accounts come from people who weren't on the scene and took somebody else's word for what happened. Where do you get the idea that "witness accounts differ"?

coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 08:00 pm
@giujohn,
Quote:
In my book he is not a victim.


Same here. It was a backhanded way of saying it.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 08:17 pm
Quote:
Code Pink Moonbats: White People In The US Never Have To Put Their Hands Up For The Police…


Quote:
Apparently cops only make black people put their hands up, who knew?

http://weaselzippers.us/197373-code-pink-moonbats-white-people-in-the-us-never-have-to-put-their-hands-up-for-the-police/
Progressives are amazingly stupid sometimes.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2014 08:22 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
Code Pink Moonbats: White People In The US Never Have To Put Their Hands Up For The Police…


Quote:
Apparently cops only make black people put their hands up, who knew?

http://weaselzippers.us/197373-code-pink-moonbats-white-people-in-the-us-never-have-to-put-their-hands-up-for-the-police/
Progressives are amazingly stupid sometimes.
A lot depends on toward WHAT thay wanna progress.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 08:04 am
@giujohn,
giujohn wrote:

In my book he is not a victim. He is a man who commited 2 felonies in 15 minutes who dispalyed a wanton disregard for any atuhority or for the safety of himself or others. He was a loose cannon looking for trouble; a walking advertisement for tragedy and disaster.


So you have already judged the case.

Very open-minded of you (said sarcastically).
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 08:09 am
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
NOW THERE ARE FOUR SOURCES: Officer Darren Wilson Suffered Fractured Eye Socket
(One Source To The Washington Post) - See more at: http://im41.com/archives/98187#sthash.3HgsjN6A.zug8Jidy.dpuf


Has any hospital or doctor given testimony that Officer Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket...as a result of an altercation with the young man he pumped six bullets into?

If not...why not wait until we get something more substantial than what you are offering here?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 10:31 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Where do you get the idea that "witness accounts differ"?

From listening to them.

From the eyewitnesses, I heard differences regarding which direction Brown was facing when the first shot hit him, whether he had his hands up when he faced the officer, and whether he was moving in a possibly threatening manner toward the officer, or the officer was moving toward him, when the fatal shot was fired.

I didn't feel that the eyewitnesses that I heard sufficiently answered the question of whether Brown posed a threat to Wilson. Aside from the differences in their accounts, none of the eyewitnesses knew exactly what had transpired during the altercation at the police car, which would have affected the threat felt by the officer, and would have affected his perception of Brown's subsequent actions. The issue is whether the officer had credible reason to feel threatened by Brown that justified his use of deadly force, and the differing eyewitness accounts cloud the answer to that question more than they clarify it.


Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 11:51 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
I didn't feel that the eyewitnesses that I heard sufficiently answered the question of whether Brown posed a threat to Wilson.

Which eyewitness denied that Brown was 20 feet away from Wilson when Wilson killed him? Which eyewitness denied that Brown had his hands up when Wilson killed him? Which eyewitness corroborates the police's claim that Brown was charging at Wilson when Wilson killed him? According to which eyewitness did Wilson have a credible reason to kill Brown?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 12:04 pm
@Thomas,
Is it your position that at a given point in time,
a police officer with years of clean history behind him
and by idle un-related co-incidence, with a fx eyesocket,
simply decided to become a murderer in full public vu
of anyone in the area and that he singled out the 6' 4" robber
of a cigar store who ruffed up its manager, by random chance ?
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 12:30 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
a police officer with years of clean history behind him
and by idle un-related co-incidence, with a fx eyesocket,
simply decided to become a murderer in full public vu
of anyone


Of course. There is no such thing as a black thug.http://www.acidpulse.net/images/smilies/rofl1.gif
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 01:26 pm
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 01:51 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Is it your position that at a given point in time, a police officer [...] simply decided to become a murderer [...] ?

I take no position on what went on in officer Wilson's head. When he shot, no witnesses were inside it to observe his thought process, if any.

We do, however, have eyewitnesses who observed officer Wilson's actions. Contrary to what firefly said, these witnesses do not contradict each other on any fact that's relevant to the key question: Was officer Wilson in reasonable fear of serious harm to himself or others? They agree Brown was about 20 feet away from Wilson, his arms either raised up or clutched around his torso. Either way, no eyewitness so far has testified to anything that would have put reasonable fear into officer Wilson.
RABEL222
 
  4  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2014 02:03 pm
@Thomas,
I think I will wait for all the facts and will disreguard his companion. He has every reason to lie. Revenge, covering his ass, perhaps he feels that if he can nail the cop they'll forget his part in the strong arm attempt?
 

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