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Malaysia Airlines jet crashes in Ukraine

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 06:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
At the very least, Kerry has info from intelligence and other sources. You have NONE.
We cant know what he knows, because he refuses to show us anything. All we know is what he says, and after the selling of the Iraq invasion that is not good enough.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 06:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
It's testament to just how pervading and pervasive USA propaganda is, and has been, Hawkeye.

Two massive war crimes committed by the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan, millions killed and injured and it's already off the radar, while the piddling instance on 9-11 is kept front and center. For the sheeple.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 06:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yeah, CI, you lying, confused little dog dung. We've all seen how USA intelligence works. You were just recently railing about how often the USA lies its ass off.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 06:49 pm
@JTT,
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_laa7ifEb8s1qa5bnvo1_500.jpg

We keep talking about how Obama has become just like Bush, why should lying to us to get what he wants be any different???
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 06:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
Once or twice, fair enough, but y'all have been fooled innumerable times.


"We Americans are the ultimate innocents. We are forever desperate to believe that this time the government is telling us the truth."
- Sydney Schanberg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 07:27 pm
More threatening words.
Quote:
In Washington, Kerry criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin and threatened "additional steps" against Moscow.


Wow! Putin is shaking in his boots!
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 07:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
"American leaders are perhaps not so much immoral as they are amoral. It's not that they take pleasure in causing so much death and suffering. It's that they just don't care. The same that could be said about a sociopath. As long as the death and suffering advance the agenda of the empire, as long as the right people and the right corporations gain wealth and power and privilege and prestige, as long as the death and suffering aren't happening to them or people close to them, then they just don't care about it happening to other people, including the American soldiers whom they throw into wars and who come home - the ones who make it back alive - with Agent Orange or Gulf War Syndrome eating away at their bodies. American leaders would not be in the positions they hold if they were bothered by such things."

William Blum
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 07:44 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Putin's overreach


Are you sure, Hinge?

-----------------


"For the world as a whole, the CIA has now become the bogey that communism has been for America. Wherever there is trouble, violence, suffering, tragedy, the rest of us are now quick to suspect the CIA had a hand in it. Our phobia about the CIA is, no doubt, as fantastically excessive as America's phobia about world communism; but in this case, too, there is just enough convincing guidance to make the phobia genuine. In fact, the roles of America and Russia have been reversed in the world's eyes. Today America has become the nightmare."

Arnold Toynbee, the British historian, quoted in the New York Times of May 7, 1971
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 08:02 pm
@JTT,
Are you suggesting the CIA is responsible?

hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 08:11 pm
@JTT,
Not sure (I'm never sure about anything except my own feelings), but some less hysterical commentary is is focusing on this piece by Timothy Garton Ash
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/opinion/sunday/protecting-russians-in-ukraine-has-deadly-consequences.html?_r=0

The idea that Putin-led Russia is determined to restore the Soviet Empire (sans communism). So Putin's support of Russian separatists in various former Soviet States makes him at least indirectly complicit in the MH17 atrocity.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 08:23 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Are you suggesting the CIA is responsible?



That's just ludicrous, Finn.

The leading terrorist organization in the world, run by the leading terrorist nation in the world, two groups that have illegally intruded into some 70 nations since WWII, been responsible for the deaths of millions - how could you even suggest such a thing!?
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 08:33 pm
@hingehead,
Did you miss this, Hinge? It's on the page before this one, this very thread.

---------

Ukraine's former security chief, Aleksandr Yakimenko, has reported that the coup-plotters who overthrew the elected government in Ukraine, " basically lived in the (U.S.) Embassy. They were there every day." We also know from a leaked Russian intercept that they were in close contact with Ambassador Pyatt and the senior U.S. official in charge of the coup, former Dick Cheney aide Victoria Nuland, officially the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs. And we can assume that many of their days in the Embassy were spent in strategy and training sessions with their individual CIA case officers.

To place the coup in Ukraine in historical context, this is at least the 80th time the United States has organized a coup or a failed coup in a foreign country since 1953. That was when President Eisenhower discovered in Iran that the CIA could overthrow elected governments who refused to sacrifice the future of their people to Western commercial and geopolitical interests. Most U.S. coups have led to severe repression, disappearances, extrajudicial executions, torture, corruption, extreme poverty and inequality, and prolonged setbacks for the democratic aspirations of people in the countries affected. The plutocratic and ultra-conservative nature of the forces the U.S. has brought to power in Ukraine make it unlikely to be an exception.

Noam Chomsky calls William Blum's classic, Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions since World War II, "Far and away the best book on the topic." If you're looking for historical context for what you are reading or watching on TV about the coup in Ukraine, Killing Hope will provide it. The title has never been more apt as we watch the hopes of people from all regions of Ukraine being sacrificed on the same altar as those of people in Iran (1953); Guatemala(1954); Thailand (1957); Laos (1958-60); the Congo (1960); Turkey (1960, 1971 & 1980); Ecuador (1961 & 1963); South Vietnam (1963); Brazil (1964); the Dominican Republic (1963); Argentina (1963); Honduras (1963 & 2009); Iraq (1963 & 2003); Bolivia (1964, 1971 & 1980); Indonesia (1965); Ghana (1966); Greece (1967); Panama (1968 & 1989); Cambodia (1970); Chile (1973); Bangladesh (1975); Pakistan (1977); Grenada (1983); Mauritania (1984); Guinea (1984); Burkina Faso (1987); Paraguay (1989); Haiti (1991 & 2004); Russia (1993); Uganda (1996);and Libya (2011). This list does not include a roughly equal number of failed coups, nor coups in Africa and elsewhere in which a U.S. role is suspected but unproven.


-------------

Has Russia come anywhere close to invading/interfering in that many countries?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 08:45 pm
@hingehead,
This paragraph pretty much says it all.
Quote:
It seems plausible already to suggest that a regular army (whether Ukrainian or Russian) would usually have identified the radar image of a civilian airliner flying at 33,000 feet, while a group made up solely of local militants (even ones with military experience) would not ordinarily have had the technology and skill to launch such an attack without outside help. It is precisely the ambiguous mixtures created by Mr. Putin’s völkisch version of the “responsibility to protect” that produce such disastrous possibilities. He subverts and calls into question the authority of the government of a sovereign territory, and then blames it for the result.


That's enough evidence to kill an elephant.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 08:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It seems plausible already to suggest that a regular army (whether Ukrainian or Russian) would usually have identified the radar image of a civilian airliner flying at 33,000 feet,


But the USS Vincennes wasn't able to discern the radar image of the Iranian passenger jet?

Quote:
That's enough evidence to kill an elephant.


It's clear that it is enough for a sheeple.

The problem is, CI, that one can never be sure if it is you being your usual dumb bunny self or if you are lying. We see both come up with alarming regularity.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  3  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 09:48 pm
Jesus, look at him go. This desperate scream for attention would be comical were it not so pathetic.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  4  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 09:49 pm
I wish they'd stop calling it a crash.
roger
 
  3  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 10:04 pm
@Wilso,
Good point.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 10:47 pm
@roger,
I should read back, in case someone else said this - but even though I am more than a little cross with Putin - it could have been a horrible accident. It's definitely happened.

Wonder why they flew over Ukrainian airspace?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 11:04 pm
It's always interesting to come a day or two late to these "breaking news" threads to see what wild theories were cooked up before the facts were known and who was closest to the mark.

Right now it appears that President Obama, PM Cameron of the UK, PM Tony Abbot of Australia and PM Stephen Harper of Canada are all on the verge of saying flat out what everyone knows: the Malaysian passenger jet was brought down by a sophisticated missile fired by Ukrainian Separatists; and provided to them by Russia. Easy for them, the Western European states may say, they don't depend on Russia for any of their natural gas, nor have extensive economic ties with Putin. Certainly none of them are selling warships to Russia.

Since I don't think there is any chance the passenger jet was deliberately targeted (as opposed to being mistaken for a Ukrainian government airship) It seems the only real question to be answered is whether or not Russian Special Forces were on-site assisting the rebels or actually pulling the trigger themselves. If the answer is yes the level of public outrage will, of course, increase, but it isn't required to warrant a tough response from the rest of the world.

The Eastern European nations seem to be in favor of tougher sanctions despite the fact that they depend more heavily on Russian natural gas than do the Western European states, but they also have a lot more to fear from Russian aggression.

Andrea Merkel has already signaled to both Obama and Putin that she has little interest in or stomach for a response that exceeds the puny additional sanctions imposed on Wednesday, and no intention of connecting any dots and holding Russia directly responsible for the disaster:

Quote:
Merkel called Wednesday’s move “an adequate response to what happened in the past few days,” although she noted that the European decision had left open the door to “act on a new level” if necessary.


Quote:
German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Friday pressed Russia to work harder toward a political solution in Ukraine. But she also drew a line between the Russians and the separatists, saying that “the Russian president of course has an influence,” but “still one has to differentiate between the separatists and the Russian government.”


While there are some reports that attitudes in some of the capitals of the Western European nations are hardening, their economic ties to Russia are such that it's more likely that they will follow Merkel's lead and continue to tread lightly...at least until the investigation is complete.

Which leads to the question, what does anyone expect to find from this investigation? Everyone is calling for it and there has been particular anger over the fact that, thus far, the rebels have not only impeded it, but there is said to be film of them appearing to be looting the remains of the passengers.

Assuming the rebels and Russians haven't been able to remove all traces of the missile(s) that brought the plane down (which should be the case unless the investigation is stalled for days to come), what can they learn that we all don't already know? The investigators aren't going to find a recording of the rebels taunting the Malaysian Airlines pilot: "Prepare to die at the hands of Ukrainian Separatists who were provided the missile that is about to kill you and your 295 passengers by Vladimir Putin, and which was actually fired by Russian Special Forces right here beside us!" They also aren't going to be able to interview the rebels, and even if they could all they would get are denials and lies.

Let's assume though that the Russians are able to impede the investigation long enough to remove any trace of the missile. In the absence of forensic evidence of, again, what we all know happened, are Merkel and the others prepared to dismiss the disaster as a mystery, and thereby avoid having to make the hard decision about additional sanctions?

Putin's Russia, not surprisingly, seems more and more like the old Soviet Union every day. The audacious mendacity in their response so far has been striking. They are blaming the Ukrainian government because a) It happened in their airspace, and b) Because they haven't resolved the conflict with the rebels (which apparently means allowing them to carve out another chunk of the country to become part of Russia). Amazingly, it is implicit in "b" that the Russians are acknowledging the rebels shot the plane down and yet the kabuki dance of the investigation is seen as essential. The cajones on this guy are colossal. He's also just cut of all natural gas to the Ukraine. Rather than act in any way remotely contrite, he's doubling down.

The sad truth of this matter is that without the blunder of the murderous rebels (keep in mind that they already shot down two Ukrainian planes with crews on board, and fully expected to be killing more Ukrainians with the missile that brought down the passenger jet), and the tragic deaths of almost 300 innocent people, Putin's plan to further carve up and steal territory from a sovereign state would likely have proceeded to a successful conclusion with little more than a tsk tsk from the rest of the world.

If the US, and especially the Europeans recognize Putin as the very real threat he is, they will do the following without further dithering:

Provide the arms the Ukrainians have requested and need to defend their land, since it is clear no other nation is prepared to assist them militarily. That they have be denied these weapons thus far is not only a disgrace, it's just plain stupid as it encourages the sort of aggression Russia has engaged in with impunity and which led to this tragic disaster.

Do whatever it takes to shift Europe's supplier of natural gas from Russia to the US and as soon as possible.

Impose tough sanctions that can damage Russia’s economy. These flea bite sanctions against a few oligarch pals of Putin and the manufacturer of the missile system believe to be involved in this disaster have no meaningful impact. In fact Putin and his cronies have mocked them.

Putin is not Hitler, the Ukraine isn't the Sudetenland and neither President Obama nor Chancellor Merkel are Neville Chamberlain, but the formula here is as old as international politics (and that includes relations between two neighboring tribes of Neanderthals), perceived weakness invites aggression, and a weak response to aggression invites more and greater aggression.









Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Jul, 2014 11:06 pm
@JTT,
Well I'm glad you realize it. For a minute there I thought you were being pathologically paranoid about the US.
0 Replies
 
 

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