28
   

More American War in Iraq?

 
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 08:56 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I need say no more, you really have no concept of the difference.


Sorry but putting you life on the line is putting your life on the line for whatever reason.

An dead is dead if your luck run out.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 08:59 am
@BillRM,
Taking part in a dangerous sport for pleasure cannot compare with the risk and horror of combat. Only an idiot would try to compare the two.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
All those ludicrous coalitions are similar to the situation in the 30-year war -with modern weapons, though.

Control of Iraq and Syria as of June 15:
http://pietervanostaeyen.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/2000px-iraq.png
http://pietervanostaeyen.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/20140615-221408.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:28 am
@oralloy,
Thanks for posting the maps - I should have done it myself.

BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:33 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
cannot compare with the risk and horror of combat


Bullshit your body does not look any better by dying due to a shelling then by having a wing break off and falling a few thousand feet for example.

Hell my friend that happen to had many seconds knowing he was going to die before impact so how must horror do you care for?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:38 am
@BillRM,
This is why most people are totally contemptuous of what you write, you have no concept of reality whatsoever. You actually believe this horseshit. Try sitting down with a bunch of vets and spouting that crap, now that would be a rare moment of bravery.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:41 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
so how must horror do you care for?


The unspeakable horror that the USA has visited upon the vast majority of the world's poor, Bill.

But as usual, this is all about the important people.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:43 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Try sitting down with a bunch of vets


Try sitting down with a bunch of Iraqis or afghans or Nicaraguans or Vietnamese or Timorese or Indonesians or Guatemalans or ... .
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:57 am
@BillRM,
How many of your flying club buddies are suffering from post traumatic stress disorder?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 10:01 am
@izzythepush,

How many of your flying club buddies are suffering from cancer because of USA and UK depleted uranium. How many are producing deformed babies? How many are affected by agent orange?
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 11:02 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Try sitting down with a bunch of vets and spouting that crap,


LOL I had co-workers/friends that had been combat vets who you could not get up in an ultralight or to try skydiving.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 11:12 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
How many of your flying club buddies are suffering from post traumatic stress disorder?


From flying none that I know of but then no one is forcing anyone of us to run those risks unlike military people who have an obligation to face the risks of combat with special note of before the US went to an all volunteer military.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 11:15 am
@BillRM,
What's so sad, Bill, is that so many young people in the USA military are being led into war crimes and terrorist actions just by being in the USA military.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 03:04 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Nope, I'm not a veteran of either war or peacetime service.

I have more I want to say about this but not the time right now to say it, but although I've stated a number of times before that I didn't serve, I don't want you or anyone else to have the impression that I did.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 03:37 pm
@BillRM,
Rich man's pastime, which is significantly less risky than those poor lads whose only other option is unemployment.

To claim any form of similarity is utterly contemptuous. I couldn't imagine my opinion of you falling any lower, but it just has.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 07:12 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Rich man's pastime


LOL we have a lot of firefighters for some strange reason that was into skydiving when I was doing it and a lot of middle class teachers and such that was into ultralight flying.

Hell the owner of one of the ultralight dealerships was in fact a Miami Firefighter and one of the jump masters was a female Miami Herald middle level account department employee.

Hardly a rich men sports at all, more like middle-middle class sports if anything.

I picked up my MX ultralight for a thousand dollars and then needed to put in another two to three thousands to get it airworthy.

Lot lot cheaper then my wife part ownership of a small Piper.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 07:40 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
As a matter of fact I missed the national draft by one year. By the time I turned 18, Nixon was withdrawing large numbers of troop and they weren't sending anyone new over. I wasn't about to enlist anyway though as it seemed clear to me that there was a) No reason, at all, for us to be there, b) No desire or intent to actually win the thing and c) I didn't want to get my ass shot off. By the time I turned 18, Nixon was withdrawing large numbers of troops and they weren't sending anyone new over. What I would have done if this was the case can't be known with certainty, but I very much doubt I would have enlisted, however if I had been drafted I would have gone wherever they sent me. I never had any intention of going to Canada or employing any other means to avoid the draft.

I never, in any way, held it against anybody that fought there, although some of my anti-war associates did. It was always a source of friction. I had friends and relatives who were there, and some (not all) told me what it was like. One guy (on the night of the first time he ever smoked pot) took wounds from a grenade and a rocket and came home in real bad shape. I haven't heard from him in over 20 years, but the last time I saw him he had a severe limp (probably still does) and shrapnel was still coming out of his back and buttocks. My cousin was a helicopter gunner, and while he wasn't wounded he came home a wreck. The only guy I knew who was over there and actually liked to talk about his experiences was someone who was an MP in Saigon.

By the time the stench of Vietnam started to clear, I was married and into a career, and didn't feel I was in a position to or that it was necessary for me to join the military. This was a selfish point of view, but I'm not hypocritical enough to tell young kids that it’s their duty to serve their nation by enlisting. By the time there was another real war, I had three kids and was too old to join.

Sometimes I regret that I wasn't there but that's based on a crazy desire to know how I would have reacted, and to have experienced the sort of bond soldiers develop, not because I feel guilty.

My father won a bronze star in Korea (drafted) and my Uncle left the beaches at Normandy with his whole left calf shot off. Both of them told me their stories of what it was like only once. In a bar, while the family women were at my wife's bridal shower. Neither of them nor my cousin nor my friends ever made out like it was a heroic adventure. They all hated it.
So, while I certainly don't have first-hand knowledge of what it's like to be part of a war, I don’t kid myself about the reality either.

I don't have any kind of ax to grind with pacifists and especially not if they've fought in a war. It's too bad the world isn't filled with only pacifists, but of course it's not, and this is what has led me to supporting certain wars. I do think though that if you've supported any war for any reason, your feelings about the rest of them are simply boil down to a question of politics.

I also don't think that the only people entitled to voice their opinion about wars are people who have fought in them. They certainly have an understanding of the horrors of war that people like me can't share, and they know better than us the realities of how the military operates. I bow to their experience whenever appropriate.

I know, though, that one of our greatest generals and, arguably, a pretty good president, Dwight Eisenhower never saw combat and neither did General David Petraeus, and I don’t think too many people ever questioned their right to their opinion on a war. Presidents Clinton and Obama never served, and Presidents Bush, Reagan, and Carter didn’t see combat. The last president to serve in combat was George H W Bush and he, of course, ordered Gulf War I. One might argue that it was his first-hand experience with war that led him to, as president, fight a war that was over quickly and with an incredibly low casualty rate, however Lyndon Johnson also saw combat in WWII (awarded the silver star) and his name is almost synonymous with one of the most pointless and heinously fought wars in our history. A war which led to the deaths of 58,300 members of the American military and 153,303 wounded; with almost a million people dead all told. So while service in our military, and particularly in combat, is to be respected and appreciated, it obviously doesn’t guarantee any particular wisdom or even common sense, even when the subject is war itself.

So by your estimation, I must be a chicken-hawk because I supported Gulf War I, the Afghan War and the Iraq war, but have not served myself. I might even agree with you if I was forever calling for sending troops overseas to solve each and every foreign policy problem we face, but of course I’m not. I'll save for another time an explanation of what I have called and what I am calling for, for another time.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 08:36 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Good point, Bill.

Come now JTT, you've been listening to me complain for more than a year now about the fact that I can no longer make WOW work with my dialup.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 08:37 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thanks for posting the maps - I should have done it myself.

You're welcome. I got them from here:
http://pietervanostaeyen.wordpress.com

I believe he intends to publish new maps on the 1st and 15th of each month. We should only be a few days away from an update.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 08:38 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
How many of your flying club buddies are suffering from cancer because of USA and UK depleted uranium. How many are producing deformed babies?

How many people anywhere are suffering any such effect due to DU?

None whatsoever.


JTT wrote:
How many are affected by agent orange?

War creates many unfortunate results, but it isn't our fault that the North Vietnamese insisted on overrunning the South and stamping out their democracy.

If the US has anything to be ashamed of, it is the way the Democrats betrayed the South Vietnamese by cutting off aid right when they needed it most.
 

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