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More American War in Iraq?

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 08:51 pm
@JTT,
Welcome back.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 08:52 pm
@JTT,
Read the article or read my post and you'll see who the authors are.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 09:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You think there's a valid reason to read such terribly uninformed crap, Finn. USA propaganda meisters are a dime a dozen.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 09:36 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Did you read the article or only the quote?


I read your posting and going back to history one more time you will find that Hitler and Stalin was the best of friends/allies at one point and even going back to the time when Germany was beginning to rearming in secret and Hitler was not even in power yet the Germans practice and developed their weapons and military on Russian soil.

Relationships of these kinds are always in a state of flux.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 09:54 pm
@JTT,
Obviously
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 09:55 pm
@BillRM,
The authors address your point in the article.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 03:48 am
What seems to be an interesting question is: who finances ISIS?

Iraq’s government accuses Saudi Arabia of supporting the ISIS jihadis.
The USA, Saudi Arabia’s ally, has rejected the Iraqi Premier’s accusation.

The Gulf states' - Saudi Arabia but also Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates - motivation in financing groups like ISIS could be to support their fight against the regime of President Bashar al Assad in Syria.

ISIS was able to get oil fields in northern Syria under their control. They are said to use trucks to bring oil over the border into Turkey. That could be an important source of funding for them as well.

And then there's of course the looting of the central bank in Mosul.

With their current financial power, it will be easy for ISIS to buy additional high-quality weapons on international armaments markets.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 04:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I already provided a link on that......oil, historical artifacts and anything else that can be sold to or from the warzone of Syria has financed them so far. These boys are scrappers, they dont need or want anyone else paying their bills.

They just added $450 million in cash from the Mosuls banks and a whole lot of military equipment, and according to most reports they are about to go into the refined petrol business in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 08:03 am
Iraq is more like N. Ireland than Lebanon, Reconciliation is Possible

Quote:
By Jocelyne Cesari

The attack of The Islamic State of Iraq and al Sham (ISIS) on Mossul and its march on Baghdad has taken the international community by surprise and raised the possibility of another US intervention in Iraq, with the hope it could prevent the downfall of the country into a sectarian war. Such a scenario is highly improbable because of the nature of the Iraq crisis that is first and foremost political and not religious.

The rise of ISIS to preeminence is not due to its religious ideology but to the structural deficiencies of the Iraq state. As tempting as it can be to compare Iraq to Lebanon in the 1970s, the political reality is different.

First, sects or religious communities are not engrained in Iraq national history unlike Lebanon. While Lebanon was built on the explicit recognition of different religious communities, this has not been the case of Iraq. In my book, The Awakening of Muslim Democracy: Religion, Modernity and the State, I describe how Saddam Hussein held his power through the Sunni minority over the Shia population, which implied an explicit denial of the religious diversity of the national community and even worse, a discriminatory use of religious groups and interests in the building of the state institutions. In these conditions, it is no surprise that the end of the Saddam regime opened a Pandora’s box of sectarian divides, since religious and ethnic diversity was negated at the very foundation of modern Iraq. As a consequence, after 2003, Shias previously persecuted, took on the power in a classical scenario of revenge.

In this regard, the Iraqi situation bears resemblance with the tensions between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland that were caused by the discrimination of one religious group (Protestants) over another (Catholics) as well as divergent views of the national community. It means that the conflict is about power sharing between different religious and ethnic groups and the inability and unwillingness of the successive Maliki regimes to create federal institutions that would allow the political inclusion of all groups.

The 2003 U.S. intervention in Iraq did not create the sectarian tensions; they were already simmering under the iron fist of Saddam. But it can be argued that the American strategy post-Saddam did not facilitate better relationships between Sunnis and Shias. In fact by siding with the long time oppressed Shias and not working efficiently on a reconciliation process between the communities and a more equitable redistribution of power, the U.S. has exacerbated the suspicions and hostility between the two groups without gaining any real allies in the process.

In sum, the main reason for the rise of ISIS is the growing disillusion of the Iraqi Sunnis with the government of Al Malki who has marginalized Sunni in different areas of politics and public life. In other words, the main issue that fuels the influence of ISIS is not religion, even if the war is couched in religious terms, but the unbalance in the distribution of power between Shia and Sunni.

Although ISIS aims to establish a Caliphate across Iraq, Syria and beyond, it is not the main goal of the Sunni population of Iraq. In fact the political violence of Sunnis in Iraq is governed primarily by tactical and strategic choices rather than by religious motivations. No doubt that communal antagonism plays a significant role but is the outcome, not the cause, of the discriminatory political mechanisms in Iraq.

Successful conflict regulation requires the recognition and accommodation of the core cause ‐ in this case effective power sharing ‐ rather than a containment of the violent symptoms of the conflict. In this case, defeating ISIS is certainly necessary but not sufficient. It is imperative for the Iraqi rulers to create the conditions for a national reconciliation between Sunni, Shia and Kurds and devise a constitutional compromise which offers each community sufficient protection which eliminates the resort to violence. It is probably easier said than done, especially in the current regional environment and the transnational ideology of ISIS. But its is where the international community, including the US, could positively influence Iraqi protagonists: all of them.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:22 am
Latest news is that the White House and some in congress (both parties) are insisting that Maliki resign before military aid is provided.

What do you make of that?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:41 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Yesterday, it was reported that some Arab allies were pushing the USA to withdraw its public support for Maliki in exchange for providing help in stabilizing Iraq.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:46 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I am confounded re what I think since the situation is greatly complex to me, though my primary wish is that we keep not only our feet out, but our drones etc. Also may waver on that, but likely not.
In the meantime, what would WE (?) do if Maliki were made to resign? and who replace him? WE help form a new government? Aaaack!

On whether the Saudis are funding ISIS, I read Dexter Filkins last evening saying they are.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2014/06/23/140623taco_talk_filkins?intcid=obnetwork

What does he know? I don't know how he knows, but -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexter_Filkins
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:47 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
What do you make of that?


Why do you even have to ask, Finn. It is terrorism to try to force a change in government of a sovereign nation. You guys are so inured to USA war crimes and terrorism that it's like your daily bread.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:50 am
Quote:
In the strongest sign yet of U.S. doubts about Iraq's stability, the Obama administration is weighing whether to press the Shiite prime minister in Baghdad to step down in a last-ditch effort to prevent disgruntled Sunnis from igniting a civil war.


More so than airstrikes or other American military action, top U.S. officials believe that giving more credence to Sunni concerns about Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki can stave off another deadly round of sectarian fighting of the kind that engulfed Iraq less than a decade ago.

President Barack Obama is expected to discuss U.S. options for responding to the crumbling security situation in Iraq with his national security team Thursday.

It is unclear whether Obama or other administration officials would publicly call for al-Maliki to resign. U.S. officials said there is concern within the administration that pushing al-Maliki too hard might stiffen his resolve to stay in office and drive him closer to Iran, which is seeking to keep the Shiite leader in power.

However, officials said, the administration does want to see evidence of a leadership transition plan being put in place in Iraq.

Vice President Joe Biden spoke with the Iraqi leader Wednesday and emphasized the need for him to govern in an inclusive manner. Biden also spoke to Iraq's Sunni parliamentary speaker and the president of Iraq's self-ruled northern Kurdish region.

Al-Maliki, who has long faced criticism for not making his government more inclusive, went on a diplomatic offensive Wednesday, reaching out in a televised address to try to regain support from the nation's disaffected Sunnis and Kurds. His conciliatory words, coupled with a vow to teach the militants a "lesson," came as almost all Iraq's main communities have been drawn into a spasm of violence not seen since the dark days of sectarian killings nearly a decade ago.

Iraq's government has asked the U.S. to launch airstrikes to contain the fast-moving militant group that has seized Mosul, Tikrit and other towns in Iraq as the country's military melted away. U.S. officials say Obama has been weighing that request, but strikes have not been the focus of his deliberations.

Obama's decision-making on airstrikes has been complicated by intelligence gaps that resulted from the U.S. military withdrawal from Iraq in late 2011, which left the country largely off-limits to American operatives. Intelligence agencies are now trying to close gaps and identify possible targets that include insurgent encampments, training camps, weapons caches and other stationary supplies, according to U.S. officials.

Beyond airstrikes, the White House has been considering plans to boost Iraq's intelligence about the militants and, more broadly, has been encouraging the Shiite-dominated government in Baghdad to become more inclusive.

Obama discussed his options Wednesday with congressional leaders, who told him they do not believe he needs authorization from Congress for some steps he might take to quell the al-Qaida-inspired insurgency.


source
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:59 am
@revelette2,
Hello, Rev. What's with all this mumbo jumbo. It's you assholes, excuse my French, who have caused this whole mess. And while y'all pontificate why not dwell a moment on the millions you've murdered and the pain and suffering you've caused to tens of millions!

There's never any introspection. Why?
JTT
 
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Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 10:01 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Thank you, Finn.

You are doing the "Oh look a squirrel!" routine.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 10:40 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz, quoting the Washington Post wrote:

Well, this article was good for invoking Godwin's law into the thread, for what it's worth.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 10:54 am
@JTT,
Well, there is a saying, no use crying over spill't milk. The Iraqi government of which we helped install, have asked for our help. Since we did take on Iraq, I think we have an obligation now that there is a crises over there to help if we can without taking over or making things worse.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 10:59 am
@revelette2,
Y'all never seem to worry about the spilled blood, Rev. It's just one glib comment after another.

No focus on the war crimes, terrorism, murdered babies, deformed and murdered babies, ... .

Must be nice to have ice water in your veins.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 11:05 am
@JTT,
I don't have ice water in my veins and didn't mean to be glib, but, what use is it to keep going on about the 2003 US/Britain invasion of Iraq when it comes to figuring out what to do now?
 

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