14
   

Bergdahl Prisoner Swap:Obama Obeys ONLY the Laws He Wants To.

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 05:48 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
In 2009 the Obama administration did do away with the term "enemy combatant" looked it up on Wikipedia,

I remember ridiculing that "change" when it happened (as if they could decree that terms used in international law are null and void).

The Left spent so long pretending that the Bush Administration was committing imaginary crimes that when the Obama Administration took over they felt they needed to put on a show in order to pretend that they were doing things differently.

That is largely why the Republicans block the closure of Guantanamo (besides the fact that it is a decent location for a POW camp). The only reason the Obama Administration is trying to shut it down is so they can try to distance themselves from the imaginary crimes that the Left falsely accused the Bush Administration of committing.


revelette2 wrote:
however, I am not sure how that changed the status of prisoners so I won't go into that.

It did nothing whatsoever to change the status of the detainees.

A combatant is a soldier or fighter.

An enemy combatant is a soldier or fighter on the opposing side.

A lawful combatant is a soldier or fighter who has the right to engage in combat.

An unlawful combatant is a soldier or fighter who does not have the right to engage in combat.

Saying that they were going to stop using established legal terms did not make captured enemy soldiers stop being captured enemy soldiers.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 05:48 am
BTW, if the Taliban requested in the deal that threat of killing Bergdahl not be made public, then when they said, "his health reached an urgent point" makes sense. I wondered at the time why they said it that way.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 05:48 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
This is why there was an uproar over classifying these guys as unlawful-combatants because by doing so, the argument went, they could be held indefinitely.

Criticism of the Bush Administration was for the most part unintelligible gibberish propped up by mindless hatred. It would be a waste of time to treat such criticism as if it were a serious argument.

However, in this case the Bush Administration was making some bad arguments as well. Before 2001, the only way unlawful combatants were held was via prosecution and conviction. Unlawful combatants were never simply held indefinitely without a trial.



Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The point is that they didn't automatically revert to POW status after a set period of time without being tried, and unless the Obama Administration reclassified them as POWs (a question I am unable to answer) there would be no obligation to release them at the end of the war.

If we aren't holding them as a POW, and if we haven't convicted them of a crime, then we don't have any basis for detaining them.

The Obama Administration isn't really classifying the detainees. However, when the Obama Administration justifies the detentions in court, they describe the detainees in terms that most people would consider the definition of a POW, while at the same time conspicuously going out of their way to avoid any mention of the term POW.

These arguments have largely been successful in getting the courts to approve continued detention. Note this recent appeals court ruling:

Quote:
Shortly after the attacks against the United States on September 11, 2001, Congress passed and President George W. Bush signed the Authorization for Use of Military Force. The AUMF provides:

That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
Pub. L. No. 107-40, § 2(a), 115 Stat. 224 (2001); see U.S. Const. art. I, § 8.

This Court has stated that the AUMF authorizes the President to detain enemy combatants, which includes (among others) individuals who are part of al Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces. See Hussain v. Obama, 718 F.3d 964, 967 (D.C. Cir. 2013).1 Detention under the AUMF may last for the duration of hostilities. See Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507, 521 (2004); Uthman v. Obama, 637 F.3d 400, 402 (D.C. Cir. 2011).


1 As this Court has explained in prior cases, the President may also detain individuals who substantially support al Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces in the war. The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 expressly permits military detention of a "person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners." Pub. L. No. 112-81, § 1021, 125 Stat. 1298, 1562 (2011). And our earlier cases, citing the Military Commissions Act of 2009, permit military detention of a person who was part of or "purposefully and materially" supported al Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces in the war. Al-Bihani v. Obama, 590 F.3d 866, 872 (D.C. Cir. 2010) (quoting 10 U.S.C. § 948a(7)); see Almerfedi v. Obama, 654 F.3d 1, 3 n.2 (D.C. Cir. 2011); Uthman v. Obama, 637 F.3d 400, 402 n.2 (D.C. Cir. 2011).

--------------------------------------------------------------

....we are not talking about "guilt." This is not a criminal proceeding in which the Government asks a court to find Ali guilty and punish him for past behavior by sentencing him to a defined term of imprisonment. In other words, this is not a federal criminal trial or a military commission proceeding for war crimes. Rather, this case involves military detention. The purpose of military detention is to detain enemy combatants for the duration of hostilities so as to keep them off the battlefield and help win the war. Military detention of enemy combatants is a traditional, lawful, and essential aspect of successfully waging war. See Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507, 518 (2004); WILLIAM WINTHROP, MILITARY LAW AND PRECEDENTS 788 (rev. 2d ed. 1920) (military detention during wartime "is neither a punishment nor an act of vengeance, but merely a temporary detention which is devoid of all penal character") (internal quotation marks and citation omitted). The standard of proof for military detention is not the same as the standard of proof for criminal prosecution, in part because of the different purposes of the proceedings and in part because military detention ends with the end of the war.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/2013-12-3-Ali-Opinion.pdf
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 05:49 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Does anyone know if SCOTUS has ruled that Presidents can sign bills into law and then write at the bottom "This that and the other portions of this law do not apply to me", and thus make it so?

There is no prohibition against a president adding such text. But it is unlikely that any court will ever consider such added text when they interpret the meaning of the law.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 05:52 am
@oralloy,
If you read my previous post, you will see that there was not a need for Obama to change the status of the prisoners, Powell has already established a difference between Taliban and terrorist in 2002, making it possible to do prisoner exchanges.

The Truth Behind the Bowe Bergdahl POW Prisoner Swap

Moreover, the crimes were hardly imaginary, they were terrible.

Guantanamo Bay detention camp
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 06:10 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
On the speculating on maybes, perhaps you should refrain from spreading rumors and simply go with what is known.


Quote:
I've read somewhere that originally Bergdahl's captors only wanted cash, but I don't know if that has been substantiated.


In any case, originally they demanded cash plus 21 Afghan prisoners.

Quote:
The Taliban originally demanded $1 million[43] and the release of 21 Afghan prisoners and Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani scientist convicted in a U.S. court on charges of attempted murder of U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan. Most of the Afghan prisoners sought were being held at Guantanamo Bay.[44][45] The Taliban later reduced its demand to five Taliban prisoners in exchange for Bergdahl's release.[46]


source
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 10:21 am
@revelette2,
I'm sharing what has been reported. If I don't think it has been substantiated or I question its validity, I say so. If you think that's spreading rumors, so be it.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 11:17 am
@oralloy,
I have to admit I am reconsidering my position on the status of the Taliban and probably will have to agree that legally they did not share the same status as al-Qaeda prisoners, or at the least it is a very fuzzy picture.. Since there are legal implication to their status this isn't necessarily a case of a difference without distinction, but beyond the legal technicalities it is.

The Taliban has been designated a terrorist organization by the US government and the Newsweek article revelette has linked makes the very good point that the US (like most of the world) never recognized them as the legitimate governing body of Afghanistan, so the notion that captured Taliban were clearly POWs in the context of the Geneva Convention is suspect. Powell's struggle with their status was based not on the technicalities of the Geneva Convention or the belief that a genuine state of war existed between the US and a sovereign nation (or it's legitimate government), but on the concern for how captured American soldiers would be classified by the Taliban.

Powell certainly wasn't a fool and didn't believe that if Taliban prisoners were considered POWs and treated accordingly that this would necessitate the Taliban doing the same with captured Americans. His concern was for what I consider to be the inane legalities of War that might easily be used to excuse a failure by other nations in supporting American protests of Taliban treatment of Americans and lending their influence to seeing that changed and a way to a release of the American secured.

My position that the Taliban are terrorists is not intended as a platform for making absurd demands that Obama be impeached based on violation of any laws that may be on the books that, in one way or the other, make dealing with them illegal, or even more ridiculous, trying him for treason. I know there are people who are making these arguments, but I reject them.

I am not even arguing that because these men are terrorists and that they will be returned to their terrorist brothers in a year of less (Qatar has previously failed to make good on assurances made about restricting Gitmo detainees released to them) that the deal should not have been made.

I appreciate the argument that certain very bad choices may have to be made to honor our commitment to those in our military that they will not be left behind.

What I object to however is the facile excuses made for the mess and malfeasance (actual and possible depending upon how facts develop) of the Obama Administration in arriving at and executing this decision.

It is a big deal that these men have been released. They are not has-been religious fanatics with a history of simply serving as functionaries in a Taliban government. There is a real reason, based on past behavior, to question whether or not Qatar will make good on their assurances, and as it stands, those assurances will do virtually nothing to prevent these men from re-establishing leadership positions in the Taliban from Qatar.

And while I appreciate the position based on leaving no man behind, I do not dismiss out of hand, as partisan sniping, those who argue the deal was not wise and should not have been made. Whether or not by belief that Bergdahl deserted is confirmed by a military court martial, an argument that too high a price was paid is not irrational or unreasonable. At some point the price asked can be too high. Not-with-standing the importance of our commitment to not leave our soldiers behind, there can be demands for their return to which no Administration would accede. I tend not to think the release of these five terrorists rises to that level, but, again, I am not about to tell those who do that they are necessarily wrong, and certainly not that they are crazy and/or driven only by political malignance. I'm sure there are politicians and citizens who fit the latter category, but to assert it as a blanket statement about all or most who hold the opinion is absurd and highly insulting.

The narrative that is being attempted by the see-no-evil supporters of Obama is that not only was releasing these prisoners the right thing to do in terms of gaining the release of a captured American soldier, but that there was never any alternative, that not only was the release of these men an eventual certainty, it was damned clever of the White House to use it to good effect. If there are complicated legal technicalities that require their release, there are complicated legal technicalities that can forestall it, and there is lots of evidence that this White House doesn't have a problem with using legal technicalities to get what it wants. After all, as respects Egypt, they found a “clever” way to get around a law prohibiting the US from providing any government established through a coup overthrowing a democratically elected government: They simply refused to call it what they and everyone else in the world knew it to be, a coup
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 11:51 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
That the US has a proven willingness to use what ever words suit its purpose on a given day rather than the truth obliterates any argument that America is fit to lead the global community. It is a classic case of pursuit of short term objectives at the expense of everything else.

Obama's biggest problem here is lack of words, that he never picked up the phone to anyone in COngress so far as we can tell. It almost does not matter now what happens next election, his relationship with COngress is now so broken, mainly by him, that he is cooked. What we are going to see now is Obama trying to be king as best he can by issuing orders, and then the COngressional D's increasingly taking offense along with the R's and stopping him, getting the courts to help as needed.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 01:29 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
see a hell of a lot more evidence before I thought this theory had any legs.


Thanks to the way this administration has been run it is a definite possibility.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 01:38 pm
Quote:
And a third reason was probably the desire not to dwell on the vital and hair-raising fact that the President of the United States, “the leader of the free world” and all that jazz, is nothing more than a demented half-wit.

http://www.salon.com/2010/05/20/bushreagan/

That is nice. Now what is Obamas excuse? The world actually knows he is one.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 04:34 pm
The following was posted by bobsal in a thread on the VA Scandal. As the Administration has already done a very effective job of diverting public attention from the VA travesty I didn't want to continue doing so in this forum and choose to response in a thread where it on point with the topic.

Quote:
Because your speculating on an alleged desertion is unseemly? How about waiting for charges at least? Fox has no standing to be indicting anyone.

How about this?

Quote:
Soldier Attacking Bowe Bergdahl Left Army with ‘Other Than Honorable’ Discharge

Posted by: Bob Cull in Noteworthy News June 6, 2014

Joshua Korder, who once served in the same unit as Bowe Bergdahl — and who made the false claim in an interview on CNN that at least six good men had died searching for Bergdahl – is not the squeaky clean all-American soldier that he presented himself to be. It turns out that Korder has some skeletons in his own closet as well.

It turns out, Korder was recently discharged under “other than honorable” conditions.

There are many reasons that one might receive such a discharge and it’s not the same as a “dishonorable discharge” — which is reserved for the most serious violations of conduct and military law — however, it does indicate that the recipient was no longer welcome in the military and would not be accepted if he or she wished to re-enlist.

With this new information is more damning evidence against Korder, who has already been shown to be a liar when he made his false accusations that Bergdahl was responsible for the deaths of six soldiers who were looking for him.

The army has said that no patrol was sent out for the specific purpose of finding Bergdahl, but that the regular patrols that would have gone out (whether there was a missing man or not) were told to keep an eye out for him as they went about their duties. In other words, those soldiers died on routine patrols in an area that is known to be a hotbed of Taliban activity.

On Monday Korder told CNN’s”The Lead with Jake Tapper”:
“He is at best a deserter, and at worst a traitor…Any of us would have died for him while he was with us, and then for him to just leave us like that, it was a very big betrayal…I don’t think that I could have continued to go on without being able to share with you and … the people the true things that happened in this situation. Because if you guys aren’t made aware of it, it will just go on, and he’ll be a hero, and nobody will be able to know the truth.”

In an apparent attempt to make himself seem more selfless, Korder admitted that speaking to the press could cause him more problems with the Army since he and the other members of his unit had signed non-disclosure agreements vowing not to speak of Bergdahl’s disappearance.


To put things in perspective:

Quote:
Other Than Honorable (OTH)
An OTH is a form of administrative discharge. This type of discharge represents a departure from the conduct and performance expected of all military members. It can also be given as the result of certain civil hearings.

Source


Quote:
LAWRENCE: Well, most everyone you know gets out of the military has an honorable discharge. That's the most common one. Then there are general discharges for things like a medical condition condition. But then below that, there are these so-called bad discharges. People call them bad paper. An other than honorable discharge is an administrative discharge where your command can essentially kick you out. You sign off on it and say in lieu of court martial, et cetera. It can be for something like failing a drug test, lapses in military good order and discipline. Below that, there's a bad conduct discharge, which is for pretty serious crimes. And then the worse, really, is a dishonorable discharge, which is reserved for things like treason and spying.

Source


Quote:
I got a oth in 2009 after 6 years of active duty service 11bravo Afghan vet. I got a oth for fighting. I got a re code of 3. If you get a re code of 1 or 3 wit a oth then you will be fine with a OTH with a re code of 1 or 3 you can re enlist into the military etc I'm a cop and had no problem gaining employment with my Police department. They wanted me to explain why and what happened and I was honest and told them, 3 months latter i was at police academy in Springfield Illinois. -Eric T -
Source


Quote:
The third type of administrative discharge, other than honorable, is equivalent to a bad-conduct discharge.

A service member might receive type of discharge if he is convicted by a civilian court for a crime or engages in a pattern of misconduct involving many minor offenses. In my experience, those offenses generally include disrespecting or disobeying an order, or fraudulent enlistment — such as if you concealed a prior felony conviction.

Source


Quote:
Alvaro joined the Army at age 18 in 2008. In Afghanistan in 2009, he was hit by multiple bomb blasts, including one that threw him across a road like a lawn dart. Sophisticated armor helped him escape with just bruises, but the blasts battered his brain. Ever since, he has been hit with heart spasms and seizures.

Alvaro is in many ways the typical modern disabled veteran. He survived combat with barely a scratch but later was diagnosed with what have become the most common wounds of a decade of war — traumatic brain injury and post-traumatic stress disorder, which together likely affect more than half a million veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, the Department of Defense said.

What happened when he came home is increasingly typical, too. At Fort Carson, the damaged soldier racked up punishments for being late to formation, missing appointments, getting in an argument and not showing up for work. These behaviors can be symptoms of TBI and PTSD, and Army doctors recommended Alvaro go to a special battalion for wounded warriors. Instead, his battalion put him in jail, then threw him out of the Army with an other-than honorable discharge that stripped him of veterans benefits. He was sent packing without even the medicine to stop his convulsions.

"It was like my best friend betrayed me," Alvaro said at the hospital, his speech as slow as cold oil. "I had given the Army everything, and they took everything away."
After the longest period of war in American history, more soldiers are being discharged for misconduct than at any time in recent history, and soldiers with the most combat exposure are the hardest hit. A Gazette investigation based on data obtained through the Freedom of Information Act shows the annual number of misconduct discharges is up more than 25 percent Army-wide since 2009, mirroring the rise in wounded. At the eight Army posts that house most of the service's combat units, including Fort Carson in Colorado Springs, misconductdischarges have surged 67 percent. All told, more than 76,000 soldiers have been kicked out of the Army since 2006. They end up in cities large and small across the country, in hospitals and homeless shelters, abandoned trailers and ratty apartments, working in gas fields and at the McDonald's counter. The Army does not track how many, like Alvaro, were kicked out with combat wounds.

Source


We currently know more about Bergdahl's departure from his base than we do about Korder's "Other Than Honorable" discharge.

While we can safely assume Korder was not found guilty of desertion, we don't know why he was discharged with a status less than honorable. Still, the "OTH" does have an impact on his credibility, which may be damaged further depending upon the circumstances that led to the discharge.

This revelation is, I'm sure, perceived by Obama supporters as dispositive concerning the validity of the allegations of Bergdahl's fellow platoon members, but of course it is not. There are currently at least six of these men and, presumably, if any of the other five recieved less than honorable discharges we would know it (Or at least, will know it within the next couple of days) since we can be certain that someone has checked out the status of their discharges as well.

Everything he has said, with the exception of directly attributing the deaths of other servicemen to searching for Bergdahl, has been repeated by the other five, and in an interview that took place after the Tapper interview on Monday, Korder seemed to back off the contention that men died searching for Bergdahl, or at least acknowledged that there wasn't sufficent evidence to support such a contention.

Bobsal's opinion that drawing an conclusion's about Berdahl is unseemly is simply a matter of opinion, and it would be interesting to see if his drawing conclusion about Republicans and critics of Obama ever rose to such a level as to offend his own sensibilities.

It's hard to be clear on what bobsal is asserting with "Fox has no standing to be indicting anyone." . Obviously Fox doesn't have anything approaching legal standing to idicit Bergdahl for desertion, but then they are not trying to an no one claims they could. In all probability bob is not using these terms in a legal sense, but if we convert "indict" to "draw a conclusion about," and acknowledge that The Fox News Network has never issued a corporate statement on any aspect of Berdahl's innocense or guilt (For the umpteenth time - Bill O'Reilly is not Fox News any more than Chris Wallace or Geraldo Rivera are), how does Kolder's OTH color Fox News' standing on anything? He's not employed by them, and only a nut believes he has been reading from a script written by Fox News staff.

Bottom line is that yes this undermines the credibility of Kolder but not of the other five guys. Yes, it will played for all it's worth in the smear campaign against the six men in total and Yes, it will be seen, by Obama apologists as nail in the coffin of his critics on this issue.

It is interesting that Kolder took to the airwaves to criticize Bergdahl, obviously knowing he had an OTH. Did he imagine it wouldn't come up? I suspect we'll be hearing from him on the topic.

Without any intention to minimize the impact of the OTH, the last article I quoted came as a surprise to me that misconduct discharges had increased to 67% in posts housing combat veterans. The article doesn't paint a flattering picture of the military. Maybe Kolder's OTH will stir up media interest in the topic.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 07:03 am
President Obama's Statement

Quote:
Today I have signed into law H.R. 3304, the "National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2014." I have signed this annual defense authorization legislation because it will provide pay and bonuses for our service members, enhance counterterrorism initiatives abroad, build the security capacity of key partners, and expand efforts to prevent sexual assault and strengthen protections for victims.
Since taking office, I have repeatedly called upon the Congress to work with my Administration to close the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The continued operation of the facility weakens our national security by draining resources, damaging our relationships with key allies and partners, and emboldening violent extremists.

For the past several years, the Congress has enacted unwarranted and burdensome restrictions that have impeded my ability to transfer detainees from Guantanamo. Earlier this year I again called upon the Congress to lift these restrictions and, in this bill, the Congress has taken a positive step in that direction. Section 1035 of this Act gives the Administration additional flexibility to transfer detainees abroad by easing rigid restrictions that have hindered negotiations with foreign countries and interfered with executive branch determinations about how and where to transfer detainees. Section 1035 does not, however, eliminate all of the unwarranted limitations on foreign transfers and, in certain circumstances, would violate constitutional separation of powers principles. The executive branch must have the flexibility, among other things, to act swiftly in conducting negotiations with foreign countries regarding the circumstances of detainee transfers. Of course, even in the absence of any statutory restrictions, my Administration would transfer a detainee only if the threat the detainee may pose can be sufficiently mitigated and only when consistent with our humane treatment policy. Section 1035 nevertheless represents an improvement over current law and is a welcome step toward closing the facility.

In contrast, sections 1033 and 1034 continue unwise funding restrictions that curtail options available to the executive branch. Section 1033 renews the bar against using appropriated funds to construct or modify any facility in the United States, its territories, or possessions to house any Guantanamo detainee in the custody or under the control of the Department of Defense unless authorized by the Congress. Section 1034 renews the bar against using appropriated funds to transfer Guantanamo detainees into the United States for any purpose. I oppose these provisions, as I have in years past, and will continue to work with the Congress to remove these restrictions. The executive branch must have the authority to determine when and where to prosecute Guantanamo detainees, based on the facts and circumstances of each case and our national security interests. For decades, Republican and Democratic administrations have successfully prosecuted hundreds of terrorists in Federal court. Those prosecutions are a legitimate, effective, and powerful tool in our efforts to protect the Nation. Removing that tool from the executive branch does not serve our national security interests. Moreover, section 1034 would, under certain circumstances, violate constitutional separation of powers principles.

The detention facility at Guantanamo continues to impose significant costs on the American people. I am encouraged that this Act provides the Executive greater flexibility to transfer Guantanamo detainees abroad, and look forward to working with the Congress to take the additional steps needed to close the facility. In the event that the restrictions on the transfer of Guantanamo detainees in sections 1034 and 1035 operate in a manner that violates constitutional separation of powers principles, my Administration will implement them in a manner that avoids the constitutional conflict.

BARACK OBAMA

The White House, December 26, 2013.


source

The following is an opinion on the legality of the above statement from a legal blog.

Quote:
P.S. A terminological point that most Lawfare readers will already understand: When the President “disregards” a statute on constitutional grounds he is not “violating” the statute if his constitutional argument is sound. CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin stated today that President Obama “clearly broke the law” when he acted contrary to Section 8011, the notice requirement on transfers. “The law is on the books, and he didn’t follow it,” Toobin added. The last statement is true but it does not follow that the President violated the law. It all depends on the validity of the President’s constitutional argument. If the statute impinged on an exclusive presidential power, the president properly disregarded it and did not violate it. We have not yet (and likely will not see) the Executive branch’s analysis of the constitutional question, assuming there was one. But, to repeat, presidential disregard of a statute is not a violation of the statute if the statute is contrary to Article II. For further explanation, see this letter by Walter Dellinger.

UPDATE to the P.S.: Someone pointed me to the complete transcript of the interview with Toobin, and two points are of note. First, Geoffrey Corn, who was also part of the interview, made the point that “the Constitution vests the president with the exclusive authority as commander-in-chief,” and that a law “that intrudes upon that authority, that detracts from his ability to perform his command function, is a law that candidly he shouldn’t comply with.” And second, Toobin, after noting that the President broke the law, acknowledged that “it may be that he was justified. It may be that the law is in fact unconstitutional.” Toobin should have made clear that non-compliance with an unconstitutional law is not breaking the law. But in any event, he is certainly right about this:


I think, as with most situations like this, it is somewhat a legal issue, but it’s mostly a political issue. There’s not going to be any lawsuit about this. Congress can’t sue the president for violating this aspect of the law. Congress will take action. They will hold hearings. They will express their outrage.

source

The next two quotes is from a congressional look into signing statements.

Quote:

President Reagan initiated this practice in earnest, transforming the signing statement into a mechanism for the assertion of presidential authority and intent. President Reagan issued 250 signing statements, 86 of which (34%) contained provisions objecting to one or more of the statutory provisions
signed into law. President George H. W. Bush continued this practice, issuing 228 signing statements, 107 of which (47%) raised objections. President Clinton’s conception of presidential power proved to be largely consonant with that of the preceding two administrations. In turn,
President Clinton made aggressive use of the signing statement, issuing 381 statements, 70 of which (18%) raised constitutional or legal objections. President George W. Bush continued this practice, issuing 161 signing statements, 127 of which (79%) contain some type of challenge or
objection. The significant rise in the proportion of constitutional objections made by President George W. Bush was compounded by the fact that his statements were typified by multiple objections, resulting in more than 1,000 challenges to distinct provisions of law. Although President Barack Obama has continued to use presidential signing statements, the Obama
Administration has used the interpretive tools with less frequency than previous administrations—issuing 20 signing statements, of which 10 (50%) contain constitutional challenges to an enacted statutory provision
.

Quote:
However, in analyzing the constitutional basis for, and legal effect of, presidential signing statements, it becomes apparent that no constitutional or legal deficiencies adhere to the issuance of such statements in and of themselves. Rather, it appears that the appropriate focus of inquiry in this context is on the assertions of presidential authority contained therein, coupled with an examination of substantive executive action taken or forborne with regard to the provisions of law implicated in a presidential signing statement. Applying this analytical rubric, it seems evident that the issues involved center not on the simple issue of signing statements, but rather on the view of presidential authority that governs the substantive actions of the administration in question. This report focuses on the use of signing statements by recent administrations, with particular emphasis on the Administrations of George W. Bush and Barack Obama.


excerps taken from this source
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 11:56 am
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/freed-taliban.jpg
Quote:
Every indication is that they remain deeply committed
to Islam, and thus very likely to continue seeking
Allah's special reward for those who kill and maim

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Quote:
4:95


Sahih International
Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward -

http://quran.com/4/95-96

Let's not forget the root of the problem.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 02:44 pm
@revelette2,
The relevance of the signing statement would be much greater if the White House had taken the position that congress wasn't notified because the president doesn't have to. But they did not.

Instead, they supplied the somewhat contradictory excuses that they already had, and that they couldn't because of Bergdahl's health. Then they explained the need for secrecy based on threats by the Taliban. Neither have been holding up very well, so they may yet simply assert that congress wasn't notified because the president didn't have to.

While it is not an entirely unreasonable argument, one has to wonder why they didn't use it right out of the box? If they eventually do use it, clearly they will not have served their case by first floundering around with two excuses that strain credibility.

The Lawfare excerpt makes a technical point that is likely accurate. Ultimately whether or not the White House violated the law would have to be determined by adjudication of whether or not the president was bound by it.

The White House has not made the case that he was not bound by it, and the fact is, as recognized by Lawfare, that such an adjudication is not every going to take place unless (and Lawfare doesn't note this probably because it is extremely unlikely), the president is impeached on the basis of an allegation that he violated this law. So the argument is largely immaterial.

More important is the public perception of what took place, and for the average person, not complying with a law is "breaking" a law. The majority of public opinion may turn out to be that in this case "breaking" the law wasn't a big deal, but I doubt it will be based on technicalities of terminology


The Lawfare excerpt makes a technical point that is likely accurate. Ultimately whether or not the White House violated the law would have to be determined by adjudication of whether or not the president was bound by it.

The White House has not made the case that he was not bound by it, and the fact is, as recognized by Lawfare, that such an ajudication is not every going to take place unless (and Lawfare doesn't note this probably because it is extremely unlikely), the president is impeached on the basis of an allegation that he violated this law. So the argument is largely immaterial.

More important is the public perception of what took place, and for the average person, not complying with a law is "breaking" a law.The majority of public opinion may turn out to be that in this case "breaking" the law wasn't a big deal, but I doubt it will be based on technicalities of terminology

Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 02:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Your statement is amusing. You say that O should have notified congress that he would utilize the signing statement requiring no notification. Isn't there a contradiction ?

Republicans not only lie all the time, but they make no sense.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 02:59 pm
@Advocate,
What signing statement? Did Congress just pass some kind of law with which the president had specific issues?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 03:49 pm
@Advocate,
Here is what I wrote.

Quote:
I can accept a "signing statement" that indicates the President is not certain of the constitutionality of a given law, explains a reason for signing it, but reserves the right to challenge it on constitutional ground at a later date. (And by "challenge" I don't mean ignore.) Beyond this I am against them, no matter who the president might be.


How you interpreted this to mean that I said Obama should have notified congress that he would "utilize" his signing statement is beyond me. There is a contradiction in what you just posted, but I don't see any in what I wrote.

If he intended to rely on his signing statement as justification for failing to notify congress, then he should have clearly said so when he announced the deal and not tried his (thus far) two feeble rationales: "I previously notified congress, but I didn't have time to notify congress because of the guy's immediate and dire health threat," and upon that failing to convince, "I couldn't notify congress because the Taliban threatened to kill the guy if the deal was made public and I can't trust congress to keep a secret."

But, he and his advisors knew that if he took the principled way it probably would have caused a ruckus and advanced the already existing narrative of his being an imperial president who ignores laws, so they came up with a flimsy excuse figuring that, as in the past, the Democrats in congress would fall in line, the media would provide cover and the narrative that the Republicans criticize him for anything and everything he does because of mean-spirited partisanship would be advanced.

These guys think they are political maestros who can not only spin anything to avoid consequences, they can do it in way which will damage their "enemies." It's worked for them in the past because the Democrats have fallen in line and the media has laid cover for them. This time though, these two crucial elements haven't been there for them.

Unfortunately, their mission to divert attention away from the even more egregious scandal involving the VA seems to have been successful

And BTW, I might find it amusing to imagine that you wearing a clown's suit and getting pelted with cream pies, but that wouldn't make it so.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 08:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Actually I posted my previous posts just as answer to the original title of the thread. Also, probably their position is holding up as well as all the positions do, along party lines. It is sad fact, but it's the times we live in.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 09:07 pm
The AP has reported that Sgt. Bergdahl has stated he was tortured by the Taliban during his captivity, confined to a cage and in total darkness for a period of weeks after his escape attempt. I don't know what constitutes "torture" anymore but let's stipulate that he was, at least at one period, treated very roughly by his captors. The Taliban are not known for emulating Fred Rogers, and this is consistent with the reports said to have come from a private firm hired by the CIA for the purpose of monitor Bergdahl during his captivity.

I don't know how anyone could find this news satisfying, nor for that matter do I know that anyone I might otherwise respect has expressed such satisfaction. I can imagine that there have been plenty of tweets saying he deserved whatever treatment he got, and there may even be some right-wing bloggers who have expressed the sentiment as well. I do know, though, that there are left-wing bloggers who are practically giddy over the news because it “turns the swiftboating of Bowe Bergdahl into a Republican disaster.” I know because bobsal who has, like his heroes in the White House successfully diverted discussion in the VA Scandal thread away from that travesty, has recently posted one such blogger’s article.

In any case, while the treatment Bergdahl received at the hands of his captors may help to explain why he eventually converted to Islam and declared himself a warrior of that faith, and it may be of interest to some in terms of his personal story, it really has little relevance to the main issues surrounding the deal negotiated and executed by the Administration. In fact, Bergdahl’s desertion only has relevance to the pathetic attempt to spin this story into a triumph for Obama.

The NY Times reported yesterday that according to American officials who have been briefed that Bergdahl is ready to travel “but not yet emotionally ready for the pressures of reuniting with his family.”

This seems strange, but I’m not at all closed to the idea that being held captive for five years as left him in a strange mental state.

Of note in the article is this:

Quote:
From the initial briefings given to senior military and civilian officials in the past week, Sergeant Bergdahl, 28, in some ways seems healthier than expected. He suffers from skin and gum disorders typical of poor hygiene and exposure, but otherwise is physically sound, one official said. He weighs about 160 pounds on a 5-foot-9 frame, and is sleeping about seven hours a night.

He shows few if any signs of the malnourishment and other ailments that Obama administration officials said he was suffering when they saw a video of him that the Taliban made in December and released a month later — a video so alarming, American officials have said, it made his release an urgent priority.


Also of note is this:

Quote:
Late Saturday, the F.B.I. said the Bergdahl family in Idaho had received threats. Federal agents, working with state and local law enforcement authorities, were “taking each threat seriously,” an F.B.I. statement said. Officials declined to give other details.


Early today Juan Williams made much of this news during the discussion of the Bergdahl affair. While he didn’t come right out and say it, the clear implication was that these threats were somehow a result of the opposition and reporting of the entire matter and the Rose Garden ceremony. This is absurd but par for the course. Williams frequently plays two roles in public. One the shrill liberal critic of any and all things Republican and the other a basically fair minded reporter. Today it was the former. Such threats are clearly the work of at least real jackasses and at worse lunatics. It’s terrible that the Bergdahl family should be receiving them but this seems to be a fairly common occurrence for people in the public eye who are in any way connected to something even remotely controversial. Stacy Dash, of all people, received death threats for tweeting that she supported Mitt Romney for president. I don’t know if this has become a more frequent occurrence since the rise of the internet, but it’s certainly depressing. In any case, the father’s beard, his speaking in Arabic, his political beliefs, and these disgusting death threats are all irrelevant to the central issues.

Finally, there is this

Quote:
Officials would not disclose if Sergeant Bergdahl has made any special requests. One thing, however, that does rub him wrong is when hospital staff call him “sergeant,” the result of two automatic promotions while a captive.

“He says, ‘Don’t call me that,’ ” said one American official. “ ‘I didn’t go before the boards. I didn’t earn it.’ ”


From all accounts, he isn’t aware of the fire-storm here in America concerning his circumstances and so this is interesting. Not conclusive of anything, but interesting.

Complete Article
0 Replies
 
 

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