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The President is speaking in a bit (WATCH IT!)

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 10:29 pm
Analysis from BBC
Quote:
Analysis: More theatre than substance


By Jon Leyne
BBC correspondent in Washington

President Bush came out for his rare evening press conference set on showing himself as a quietly determined leader committed to his policy in Iraq after some "difficult weeks".

The situation in Iraq could make Mr Bush vulnerable at the polls
He wanted to confront criticisms of his policy in Iraq and his counter-terrorism efforts before the 11 September 2001 attacks.

More theatre than substance, he offered no shocking new policy initiatives. Instead, he sought to calm the nation.

With growing unease over the direction of the action in Iraq, Mr Bush delivered a steady-as-you-go message, fearing that he stands more to lose if he wavers than if he stays the course.

Commitments

The press conference was not without some news. He will seek a new UN resolution looking for more international support in Iraq.

He also said that he was committed to providing whatever troops are needed after US Gen John Abizaid said he would need some 10,000 additional troops to help stabilise the country in face of attacks from insurgents.

"If that's what he wants, that's what he gets," Mr Bush said.

And he reiterated his commitment that the US would hand over sovereignty to the Iraqis at the end of June.

"Sovereignty involves more than a date and a ceremony, it requires Iraqis to assume responsibility for their own future," Mr Bush said.

It remains unclear how the US will do that bearing in mind that they have not announced the political institutions to be in place and the Iraqi security forces performed poorly during the recent violence.

But the president kept to a tough message on Iraq with few compromises.

At one point, he said that he instructed his commanders to make every preparation to use decisive force in Iraq if necessary.

He played the tough, decisive leader, repeating again his ideological message that it is America's duty to spread freedom in the world.

And again he stressed in the face of questions over the rationale for the war in Iraq that it was very much part of the war on terror.

Poll mobility

Politically, quite a lot is at stake for Mr Bush who is seeking re-election in November.


For those in the US who have questions about the country's direction - and polls show an increasing number of Americans do - President Bush did not give them any new answers
Poll numbers on key Bush administration policies have been down in recent weeks.

Support for the president's policy in Iraq has slipped into negative territory - only 44% of Americans now approve of his policies there, surveys suggest.

And he trails his likely Democratic opponent John Kerry by six to seven points in national polls.

However, the president's poll numbers will go up and down, depending on events on the ground in Iraq.

The recent increase in instability and the rise in American deaths will obviously drive his poll numbers down.

Having invaded Iraq, he is now very much at the mercy of events, but he believes that his greatest danger is if he is seen as flip-flopping on the issue.

In this press conference, he wanted to maintain his image as a clear, decisive leader who knows where he is going and knows where he wants to lead.

No apologies

It was a rare American presidential press conference in that every single question was on foreign policy.

Reporters did not ask him a single question on the economy, which may or may not suit Mr Bush at the moment.

And several reporters asked him if he felt that he had anything to apologise for with respect to the 11 September 2001 attacks.

But it was very clear that he did not want to offer any mea culpas, any explanations on what he did wrong. That is not what he is in the market for.

While ceding little ground, he also offered very little new.

For those in the US who have questions about the country's direction - and polls show an increasing number of Americans do - President Bush did not give them any new answers.


0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 11:02 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
and funded terrorists,

Well, sort of. Hussein paid stipends to the families of Suicide Bombers in Palestine.
Which for the deliberately obtuse; means "yep" Rolling Eyes

hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
was a threat to the rest of the world.

Care to articulate exactly how?
History of attacking neighbors, seeking and using WMD's and like you just stated; funded terrorists. Rolling Eyes


hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
9/11 was the wake up call. We are no longer protected by oceans. We can sit and dig in and wait to be hit again and then retaliate, or we can take the fight to terrorists of the world.

Newsflash to the clueless: Iraq had nothing to do with 11th September.
Newsflash to the deliberately obtuse: where Bush does a lousy job of explaining the rationale, Tony Blair did so brilliantly. I know you've read the transcript. Your disagreement with the assessment is no excuse for your insults of people who don't. (cute, how you worked in the European date though :wink: )

hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The United States waited for a long time looking the other way while Nazi Germany murdered 6 million Jews. We finally waded in and, along with others, put a stop to it.

If you do a little research, you might find that the extermination of the Jews was something many Americans of the era agreed with. Just another one of those dirty little factoids of American History the far right tries to ignore.
Does this lessen the crime in any way? Rolling Eyes


hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Though on a much smaller scale, the atrocities in Iraq were just as horrendous and the comparison of going to war against the Nazis is a much better comparison than trying to compare Iraq to Vietnam.

So why have we not gone to war to prevent other genocides? Could it be that other nations (Cambodia, Rwanda, etc...) had no oil?
In keeping with your normal, deliberately obtuse viewpoint; you point out additional crimes as reason to not stop one. Rolling Eyes

hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
It's just this time that the terrorists took the fight to us first. And the president put the terrorist-harboring countries on notice at the very beginning - if you fund terrorists, if you harbor terrorists, if you commit terrorism, you are a terrorist.

And if you believe this, you are an idiot.
Totally uncalled for insult. You've done nothing to dispute Foxfire's statement. You've only demonstrated for the thousandth time that you think everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Since you are not an idiot, you should be doubly ashamed of yourself. Rolling Eyes

hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
This I think should be the debate. Is it better to take the fight to them? Or wait until they bring it to us before we act?

Or how about we attempt to deal with the causes of terrorism, in order to avoid war, or would that not be as much fun?
I doubt Foxfyre considers this fun. But since you don't agree with him, you toss out unnecessary insults, which only serve to make you look childish. Rolling Eyes

hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
This I think was the thesis of the president's speech tonight.

After the prepared statement, I dn't think there was a thesis, more like a feces.
Ah, finally, you've delivered an opinion. And a terrific addition to the discussion it was. You have an impressive knowledge of history Bob, and a fine mind. I wish you would use it for something other than deriding others a little more often… Grow up. Idea

Edit= fixed boxes and a spelling error
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 11:22 pm
Well thanks for the defense Bill. I usally don't even try in the face of insults and sarcasm but just consider the source and move on.

However, I am a her....I am woman. Hear me roar Smile
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 11:54 pm
My bad darling... I hear you roaring. He attacked me the same way when I first joined, several times, and at least twice someone stepped in to point out how asinine it was. I guess I'm just trying to repay the debt. Bob's very informative, and an asset to the site, when he doesn't do that. With any luck; he'll eventually get the message.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2004 06:56 am
Where was the puppet master Cheney when he needed him? What an embarrassment.
.
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2004 07:55 am
hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Though on a much smaller scale, the atrocities in Iraq were just as horrendous and the comparison of going to war against the Nazis is a much better comparison than trying to compare Iraq to Vietnam.

So why have we not gone to war to prevent other genocides? Could it be that other nations (Cambodia, Rwanda, etc...) had no oil?
In keeping with your normal, deliberately obtuse viewpoint; you point out additional crimes as reason to not stop one. Rolling Eyes

You refer to bob's viewpoint as "deliberately obtuse", and you tell me to "stop it" when I mention Vietnam. The tone of your discourse could stand some improvement, don't you think ?

I stand by my comparison of Iraq to Vietnam insofar as each was the result of, at best, serious errors in judgment, and each was prolonged by the intransigence of our current leaders. And I will not "stop" drawing that comparison.

BTW, in mu opinion, bob's point is well taken and raises the question of motive. A choice was made to intervene in Iraq, not other oppressed countries. Why Iraq ? This question has yet to be addressed HONESTLY by the administration.


.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2004 10:09 am
Quote:

Foxfyre wrote:
9/11 was the wake up call. We are no longer protected by oceans. We can sit and dig in and wait to be hit again and then retaliate, or we can take the fight to terrorists of the world.
hobitbob wrote:
Newsflash to the clueless: Iraq had nothing to do with 11th September.
Occam write:
Newsflash to the deliberately obtuse: where Bush does a lousy job of explaining the rationale, Tony Blair did so brilliantly. I know you've read the transcript. Your disagreement with the assessment is no excuse for your insults of people who don't. (cute, how you worked in the European date though )


HBob and Foxfyre, I have not been greatly enlightened by your dialogue although I defend your right to pursue it.

I must take issue, OccamBill, with your response to Foxfyre's response to HBob. I thought HBob was spot-on with his reply, and your deflection of his point was ineffective. Tony Blair's attempt to connect 11th September (well, he is British...) to Iraq may have been "brilliant" and articulate, but it was as misguided as Bush's garbled attempt to connect the two. This deception was as crass as a supermarket's bait-and-switch tactic to lure customers. We did not make the world safer from terrorism by attacking Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2004 10:23 am
Oh well, I don't expect everybody to be enlightened by my comments. I generally find those who debate via insult, innuendo, and uncomplimentary adjectives to be rather unenlightening too, but that's just me.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2004 10:45 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Oh well, I don't expect everybody to be enlightened by my comments. I generally find those who debate via insult, innuendo, and uncomplimentary adjectives to be rather unenlightening too, but that's just me.


Yep, that is just you.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 09:58 pm
Quote:
Iraqi's are human beings... and human beings have a right to freedom.


Quote:
Freedom from who? Freedom for who? At what cost?

In order: Freedom from Despots, Freedom for HUMAN BEINGS, and I don't much care what my share of the cost is.


Quote:
I care about the humans (Iraqi's, and Bush's actions help them in MY opinion. I believe this might be the first time I've ever directly defended Bush. If you've read many of my posts, you'll notice I've suggested our strength comes with the responsibility to help many times (just like Bush did tonight).


Quote:
Give a human being an honest shot at a decent lot in life and he will not strap bombs to his chest. The flip side of that coin is; allow him to be hideously repressed and he will consider anything that he's convince will help his family. Poor hungry people will always rebel.
I have no illusions about the tough times ahead. I also have no doubt that HUMAN BEINGS will benefit from the effort.


Quote:
In short, if a religion advocates crimes against humanity, I don't recognize the religion as anything but a criminal organization.


Quote:
I view humans as humans and believe all should be entitled to basic sustenance, freedom and dignity. Not just Americans.


What inspirational philanthropy! People could use this as an example of how to go about treading through the world. Liberation and Freedom for humanity!

Can this outpouring of of humaneness really be emanating from the individual who also wrote:

Quote:
Yikes, this one might get me in trouble. I, as you can see by my avatar, I am a stereotypical white man. I would like to think I exercise no racist beliefs, but that's not true.
When hiring sales people; I hire the most qualified applicants, but; I assume in advance that the black applicants are not likely to perform as well as their equally qualified white counterparts. Black applicants with ethnic sounding names or speech are far less likely to meet quota. I've measured the performance of hundreds of sales persons, while selling tens of thousands of products. As a capitalist, my aspiration is to make as much money as possible. The best person for the job, is the one that is most profitable to employ. Perhaps the white majority in America is less likely to buy from blacks. Perhaps the blacks I've hired lacked the social skills to match their white counterparts performance. Perhaps blacks don't try to sell as hard as whites (this one I know is false). Perhaps I'm a closet racist who lies about the observed results in order to justify my racism (also false). Regardless of the reason, the results remain the same. I've heard of Sales managers who automatically: "If the first name ryhmes with honda, the application goes in the circular file." Unfair? Certainly. Ecconomically sound? Probably. Racially biased? Definitely. Sales 'Leads" can be tremendously expensive to generate. A closing ratio variation of 1% is enormous! My companies profit margin is frequently less than 1%.
Conclusion: Ecconomic resposibility sometimes overrides my desire to be racially blind. The ugly truth is that this fiscal reality does help propetuate Noah's claims.

So, people with African ancestors have a bit of a dissadvantage when looking for work... So what. So do fat people. So do ugly people. So do intellectually challanged people. Depending on where you are; an accent from New York or Georgia will put you at a disadvantage. Young people, old people, tall people, short people are all disadvantaged as well.

It is my contention that every single person is an individual. We all have our crosses to carry. I've read about people with Down Syndrome gratuating college. The person most responsible for success or failure, in this country at least, is the person you look at in the mirror. Am I a racist?


I am, through no fault of my own, faced with an economic reality that rationalizes racism. It is not my preference.


source

That is not very humanitarian of you, Bill Occam.

Liberty! Freedom! But, who will FREE and REDEEM Blacks from the discrimination and oppression emanating from such a misanthropic individual such as yourself and those of your ilk? Bill, you never answered my question, Is YOUR racism a problem only of the Blacks unfortunate enough to have suffered you? Is YOUR racism SOMEONE ELSE'S problem only?

How do you reconcile your bleeding heart humanitarianism for the peoples of Iraq with your bigotry and racism against Blacks?

Liberty! Freedom! But only insofar as it does not interfere with your profit margin. What is that, half-assed humanitarianism?

Your DOUBLETHINK is showing.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 10:41 pm
If you had read further you would have seen these as well.

OCCOMBILL wrote:
Stereotypes and generalizations become irrelevant when accessing individuals… In my first post, I should have used the word prediction instead of assumption in relating to a new employees anticipated performance. I am not the one who uses the circular file mentioned. Does this clear anything up?


OCCOMBILL wrote:
One final clarification; in business I choose money over most everything else. It would take an extraordinarily lucky person to succeed while doing otherwise. In marketing, your risk/reward ratio mandates this. In my personal life I am very charitable and will stand up for most any potential victim. In business, I'm out to make money. Period.


During that thread everyone was trying to deny that racism exists, so I demonstrated how it does at least to some degree. In exchange I was called a bigot by the deniers. Funny thing is; the black person who was ranting about racism recognized and appreciated the honesty in my post. You are indeed, a better man than I, if you take every one of your personal, heartfelt feelings into business with you. I do not.

You see a conflict between my recognition of observed results in business and my desire to rid the world of murderous despots. I do not.

InfraBlue wrote:
Bill, you never answered my question, Is YOUR racism a problem only of the Blacks unfortunate enough to have suffered you? Is YOUR racism SOMEONE ELSE'S problem only?

How do you reconcile your bleeding heart humanitarianism for the peoples of Iraq with your bigotry and racism against Blacks?


I don't see anything to reconcile. You do. <Shrugs>. The "bleeding" part is the biggest difference Idea . Consider that I would have no "observed results" to notice, if I was the bigot you've accused me repeatedly of being. I've also noticed that moderately good-looking people out-sell beautiful and ugly people alike. So what? Depending on the product, sometimes men will outsell women, sometimes the other way around… again, so what? Perhaps you've been lucky enough to never have to think with your wallet. Or perhaps you've never had to make an unfair decision. I care what you think; just barely enough to clarify myself. If you don't care to understand… or you still think I'm a bigot, I can live with that. But, it isn't true.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 10:49 pm
I don't see Bill's 'confession' as racism. As he pointed out, he doesn't wish to be biased in favor of one color of skin, but his experience, in the limited sphere of a business environment almost dictates it.

I remember one time in Pittsburg KS I had just taken my car through a do-it-yourself carwash and when I looked for my chamois, I didn't have it. Three bays down were four BIG rough looking black guys in leather, shades, and tattoos. I was brushing as much water off the chrome as I could with my hands when suddenly these four approached me. I was alone--there was nobody else in sight There was no time to escape into the car. I braced for the worst--at the very least a robbery; at worst a rape and/or murder.

The four guys greeted me pleasantly, grinned, and chamoised off my car. Ashamed and relieved, I thanked them, shook their hands, they returned to their vehicle, and I drove off in mine.

I have often wondered if my reaction to these guys was racist. Would I have been alarmed or as alarmed if it had been four white guys in business suits? No I wouldn't have been. Why? Because I hadn't had catcalls and suggestive comments and derogatory insults yelled at me by white guys in business suits. I had, however, recently had that experience from young 'black panther' types at the University. So my bias also came from experience rather than any deep rooted prejudice re the color of anybody's skin.

At the same time I have close black friends who admit they have automatically assumed they wouldn't get a fair shake from a judge or professor or whatever because s/he was white and then were pleasantly surprised. This is a kind of reverse racism, also based on experience.

While we're on the subject, considering that all the terrorist attacks and attempted attacks in the WTC etc. have been guys from somewhere in the Middle East, is it racist to look more carefully at Middle Eastern looking guys in airports than say, a bevy of nuns or a group of redheaded Irishmen?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:00 pm
Quote:
is it racist to look more carefully at Middle Eastern looking guys in airports than say, a bevy of nuns or a group of redheaded Irishmen?

Here's an example of how words can get in the way of thinking.

To have airport security, for example, set to watch arab or arab-looking men more attentively than freckled scotswomen is surely 'racist', just as it would be 'sexist' for police to pull over men but not women.

Yet there are good rational reasons to differentiate populations in this manner.

As is so often the case, definitions of terms have to be stipulated or clarified with some care and thoughtfulness.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:21 pm
Being precise with semantics here, though, is it indeed racism? Or prudence?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:38 pm
Quote:
n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
American Heritage

So, we would establish that various comments regarding, for example, the superiority of Christian folk compared to Muslim folk as falling under #1.

In #2, we have to ignore the 'abusive' notion inherent to apply the term racism in the case we refer to. This is nonsensical, of course, as it would then follow that all instances of differentiation (hair color) were instances of racism.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:52 pm
Well I certainly don't disagree with the definition nor your take on it.

Unfortunately, there are some in our country with loud enough voices to effect public policy who would say we cannot 'profile' Middle Eastern looking guy' in airports or anywhere else as that would be racist and illegally discriminatory. And frankly I'm torn on the subject as I know people from the Middle East who are loyal citizens and good people and I would hate for them to be harrassed in any way just because they are Lebanese or Iranian or Pakistani. Those I've talked to about it though don't have a problem with it. They'd rather know they were safe flying around the country too.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 12:09 am
Sure. But you use the term 'harrassed' which is equally loaded.

There would certainly be voices who would not acknowledge subtleties and nuances in real word situations which seem quite clearly to necessitate changes in policies and attitudes, but fixed ideas are always an impediment to clear thought.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 12:14 am
My question is, what new information did Bush share with the American People and the world?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 09:39 am
Good a forum as any, I guess.
*************************
Subject: John Hinkley
You may know they've released John Hinkley from the mental facility for
unsupervised visits to his parents home on weekends. For those of you who
may be too young to remember John Hinckley shot President Ronald Reagan to
impress the actress Jodie Foster. This is such a nice letter from the
President:

THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON D.C.

Mr. John Hinkley
St. Elizabeth's Hospital
Washington, DC

Dear John:

Laura and I hope that you are continuing your excellent progress in
recovery from your mental problems. We were pleased to hear that you are
now able to have unsupervised visits with your parents. The staff at the
hospital reports that you are doing fine. I have decided to seek a second
term in office as your president and I would appreciate your support and
the support of your fine parents.

I would hope that if there is anything that you need at the hospital, you
would let us know.

By the way, are you aware that John Kerry is screwing Jody Foster?

Sincerely,
George W. Bush, President
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 09:43 am
Quote:
By the way, are you aware that ...



Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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