Kerry's Doomed Mideast Plan

@0bserver,

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and you're saying this based on what?

The governments they elect, mainly. The disarray of the Israeli left. The polls.

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As of November 2012, over 2,256 rockets had been launched at Israel from Gaza since January 2012. How would you handle this ?

The way it's handled now I guess. How many deaths, over all these years, have been caused by Hamas missiles?

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@Olivier5,

"The governments they elect, mainly. The disarray of the Israeli left. The polls."
They elect the Knesset - not the government. A large majority of the Knesset is for the peace process. And even in the current coalition government, most of parties are in favor of the peace talks. The polls may say that people are pessimistic - you can understand why after all these years. The polls don't say they don't want the peace talks.

"The way it's handled now I guess. "
Now it is handled by periodically conducting massive air strikes on Gaza when rockets get out of hand. Do you really think this is the best way to go?

"How many deaths, over all these years, have been caused by Hamas missiles?

I think close to a hundred people. But that is irrelevant. 2,996 people were killed in 911 attacks. Population of the US is about 40 times that of Israel. So in proportion, Gaza rockets on Israel had the same effect as 911 in the US. And even if not a single person dies, would you allow 15 thousand rockets to hit your city?

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@0bserver,

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The polls don't say they don't want the peace talks.

They're ok with meaningless talks as long as colonisation can continue unabated, I grant you that.

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would you allow 15 thousand rockets to hit your city?

That's not the question. The question is: is that going to be a strong motivation for a peace deal? The answer is no: it's not a big enough nuisance to the current fairly good security situation that it would lead the Israeli gvt to make concessions. Beside, there's no reason to believe Gaza will send less rockets if a deal is struck with Abbas.

Israel has everything to lose from serious peace talks, and nothing to gain.

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@Olivier5,

Ha. What do you mean "That's not the question."? Yes - that was my question. 15 thousand rockets is not anything any city would tolerate.

and you are wrong on both points:

"They're ok with meaningless talks "

The polls say Israelis want a 2-state solution, and the Palestinians do as well:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/161456/israelis-palestinians-pro-peace-process-not-hopeful.aspx

Why would you want to spoil that for the both peoples just to keep having an agenda to protest about something?

"That's not the question. The question is: is that going to be a strong motivation for a peace deal? "

I never understood this twisted logic. What makes you think that it is the violence that leads to peace? If there were no rockets from Gaza after the pullout in 2005 - there would be no IDF in the West Bank by now.

For decades the Arab states tried your way of trying to defeat Israel militarily - they failed again and again and gain. That happened even before the occupation in the West Bank. In fact that occupation is the result of one of those wars. Can't people learn from mistakes? Violence only breeds more violence.

"The answer is no: it's not a big enough nuisance to the current fairly good security situation that it would lead the Israeli gvt to make concessions. "

It has nothing to do with security. Israelis don't want to control Palestinians. Try talking to Israelis instead of listening to what others say about their opinions. Barak and Olmert gave the Palestinians basically the whole 1967 border land with a few land swaps.:

http://mondoweiss.net/images/2011/11/468-map.jpg

It was the Palestinians who decided to reject it. I still don't know why. I hope they are wiser this time.

"Beside, there's no reason to believe Gaza will send less rockets if a deal is struck with Abbas."

This is funny. So you agree that Gaza sends rockets at Israelis for no good reason what so ever?

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@0bserver,

The Israelis don't want a 2 state solution they want to completely occupy the West Bank, Gaza and beyond. You want the West to bomb Syria so Israel can occupy that. I guess Assad isn't killing Arabs quickly enough for you.

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@izzythepush,

Sorry, this is a complete load of nonsense. Not even at your usual level. Try again

I also noticed that you emit more angry nonsense in the mornings. Feeling cranky?

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@0bserver,

You're quite the confuse poster... I only stated that Israel has peace already and thus has nothing to gain from negotiations. YOU objected to this diagnostic, pointing out the Gazan rockets. I just replied that these do not change my diagnostic, fundamentally. Bibi has no reason to negotiate whatsoever; he does not believe in it and he has no incentive. Therefore he's faking it. Now i you want to vent about how bad the Pals are, be my guest, but the fact remains that Bibi is faking those talks.

Olmert, likewise, was faking it: his map remained secret at the time, he did not even allow the PA to keep a copy to study it, showed it to them like a magician, "now you see it, now you don't", and thereore the PA could neither approve of it or reject it... And Olmert pulled out this trick when he knew he had no time left to make a deal. They all do that, oldest trick in the zionist box. Wait two months before the end of your term and start talking with our good cousins the Palestinians... Barak did that too at Sharm el Sheik. It works wonders on naive audiences.

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@Olivier5,

Personally, I don't trust Bibi too much. But I disagree with your diagnostic. He has no interest in faking. He has more serious issues to take care of like Iran, and all the mess that's happening around Israel.

I don't understand why most anti-Israeli people here assume that it is the greatest pleasure for the Israelis to control the Palestinians. You say they have nothing to gain from talks. What do they have to gain from keeping under control an angry 4M population? And for what? For a few hills in Samaria or for Joseph's grave? And Israel would be happy to give Gaza to Egypt. Only Egypt doesn't want to take it. They are building a buffer zone from Gaza now

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-destroys-homes-gaza-buffer-zone-20129535

BTW, did anyone scream about them bulldozing Palestinian homes? Not a very sexy topic of Arabs abusing Palestinians, right? Too confusing.

Most Israelis are more than happy to finally get rid of this huge problem. Most of them never visited the West Bank and are not planning to. And Bibi konws it, and he wants to get reelected.

Oldest trick.. You are aware of the fact that it was the Palestinians who rejected all those proposals, right? Including the 1947 one. Did Olmert trick them in 1947 too?

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From the WaPo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/08/BSm0bOBCYAAAph6.jpg

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Update: Some readers have raised a few fair quibbles with the chart. The biggest is that it’s not totally accurate to say that Israel supports Syrian rebels; although they certainly don’t care for Assad and have previously bombed Syrian weapons and nuclear installations, they’re not exactly rooting for a Libya-style rebel takeover, either. And al-Qaeda doesn’t just hate the Assad regime, it also hates the United States, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and others. All of which helps to drive home that the Middle East is even more complicated than it appears on this already crazy-complicated chart.Source

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@JPB,

Nice, but still a few arrows missing. Like blue ones between the MB and Hamas, red ones between Lebanon Sunnis and Shias, the arrow from Iran to Hamas is greenish these days. And Turkey - Israel is probably also green. And a few squares missing, like Syrian and Lebanese Druze and Christian populations, the Kurds etc..

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@0bserver,

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He has no interest in faking.

You haven't got the memo? 1) intense pressure from the US; 2) his own coallition requires some posturing; 3) let's not forget liberal Israel supporters in the US, they need a good show once in a while to keep up faith...

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I don't understand why most anti-Israeli people here assume that it is the greatest pleasure for the Israelis to control the Palestinians.

You don't understand much. It's about lebensraum, about land and water, not about the people. If they could get away with a 'final solution' to the Palestinian problem, they would do so without hesitation. The torah requires it.

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@Olivier5,

" 'final solution' "?

Are you insane? How hateful and antisemitic do you have to be to accuse the very people who lost half of their population in systematic murders?

And people just feel it is normal an acceptable to just post filth like this? The World has no sense of shame left!

I'm glad that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are not as evil and insane as some of their supporters away from that region. .. this is just clinical

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@0bserver,

Hey, don't shoot the messenger... Chill out and inform yourself instead. Have you heard of Kahane, or the King's Torah?

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@0bserver,

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Quote:
Olivier5
"Beside, there's no reason to believe Gaza will send less rockets if a deal is struck with Abbas."

This is funny. So you agree that Gaza sends rockets at Israelis for no good reason what so ever?

I don't think Oliver's statement is funny at all. Hamas is in charge of Gaza and unless Hamas agrees there's no reason why the rockets should stop.

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@izzythepush,

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The Israelis don't want a 2 state solution they want to completely occupy the West Bank, Gaza and beyond.

This is certainly the perception most get from the ongoing building of settlements. It is believed today's Israel would like to recreate ancient Israel and all its former land.

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You want the West to bomb Syria so Israel can occupy that. I guess Assad isn't killing Arabs quickly enough for you.

It was stated Israel was upset by the ouster of the Egyptian Morsi's government because they thought they would be more likely to honor the Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel, the latter being worried about its security. The same with Assad. They are not sure what will come after Assad and are afraid the rebels will be violently anti-Israel. Israel did not want the US to stop the annual stipend to Egypt, 1.55 Billion and that's one of the chief reason's Obama refused to call the Egyptian Military's over throw of Morsi a coup. Law stipulates when a government is overthrown it should be mandated a coup and all US payment must halt.

Also, if the Syrian war widens as many think it will if Obama strikes, then Iran might enter the picture and this will just the opportunity Israel's been praying for to attack Iran with the US leading the way.

But somehow I don't think the scenario above will pan out for Israel.

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@Olivier5,

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Have you heard of Kahane

Meir Kahane who was assassinated in New York in 1990? If so this excerpt from Wiki might be of interest to the subject at hand.

"Kahane gained recognition as an activist for Jewish causes, such as organizing Jewish self-defense groups in deteriorating neighborhoods and the struggle for the right of Soviet Jews to immigrate.[3][4] He later became known in the United States and Israel for political and religious views that included proposing emergency Jewish mass-immigration to Israel due to the imminent threat of a "second Holocaust" in the United States, advocating that Israel's democracy be replaced by a state modeled on Jewish law, and promoting the idea of a Greater Israel in which Israel would annex the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In order to keep Arabs, whom he stated would never accept Israel as a Jewish state, from becoming a numerical majority in Israel, he proposed a plan allowing Arabs to leave Israel and receive compensation for their property, and forcibly removing Arabs who refused.

"Kahane founded both the militant group Jewish Defense League (JDL) in the USA and an Israeli political party Kach ("This is the Way"). In 1984 he became a member of the Knesset when Kach gained one seat in parliamentary elections. In 1988, the Israeli government banned Kach as "racist" and "anti-democratic" under the terms of an ad hoc law.[5]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane

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@Arjunakki,

Yes, That Kahane. Or Observer could just check on Bibi's own father, Benzion Netanyahu, who's always been for 'transferring' Palestinians out of Palestine...

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@Olivier5,

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You don't understand much. It's about lebensraum, about land and water, not about the people. If they could get away with a 'final solution' to the Palestinian problem, they would do so without hesitation. The torah requires it.

And if the settlers could bring about "a final solution" they would. Sometimes the settlers put sand in the gas tank of Palestinian cars. Sometimes they cut down citrius trees or set fire to trees belonging to the Palestinians. The settlers can be horribly cruel while squatting on Palestinian land.

One time a New York Times Reporter was embedded in one of the trucks driven by IDF through sections of the West Bank. Every now and then a truck would stop and an IDF soldier would get out, fire a shot into the crowd of Palestinians and then get back in only to repeat this scenario over and over. Whether they hit a Palestinian, killed one or not, we will never know because Israel will only present its side of the story. Israel has a policy of deliberately targeting civilians. The emotional and psychological horror these poor Palestinians have to put up with.

One reporter recorded a Palestinian boy throwing stones at the IDF who were patrolling the area. One soldier went up to the little boy and broke his arm into two places; the reporter filming the scene also picked up the sound of the breaking bones of the Palestinian boy. Reading this in the News I thought my heart would break for that poor child having to grow up in an apartheid state and being treated the way the Nazis treated the Jews with the exception there are no ovens!

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@Arjunakki,

Hamas was funded by the Israelis in order to wrongfoot Fatah. Fatah is a nationalistic group whereas Hamas is interested in a pan Arabic caliphate.

Having said that Hamas is quite disciplined and capable of calling ceasefires of up to 20 years if the Israelis are really interested in peace.

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@Arjunakki,

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Reading this in the News I thought my heart would break for that poor child having to grow up in an apartheid state and being treated the way the Nazis treated the Jews with the exception there are no ovens!

Well, the gas chambers are next door in Syria now... In all fairness, Bibi treat Arabs better than Assad.

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Kerry's Doomed Mideast Plan

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