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Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 10:23 pm
To this day, I still encounter many people who believe that the mid-east conflict is about terrorism and security, or about religious animosity but who don't realize the territorial aspect of the dispute.

Look at this map:

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7748/israelstealingpalestinexw9.jpg

The first image is prior to the creation of Israel, and the second image was the planned partition of the land between Jews and Palestinians. The third image, is the 1967 borders that have been the basis of negotiation since, and the last image includes portions of the West Bank and Gaza that are currently under Israeli control.

The most relevant changes in my opinion are between image number 2 and image number 3. In the 2nd, you can see that Jerusalem is not part of Israel (according to the partition plan it was supposed to be neutral despite being in the middle of Palestinian territory). In the 3rd you see that Israeli territory has stretched over to engulf Jerusalem and carved its way through Palestinian territory to secure the historic city.

Israel has every right to defend herself, and a great deal of blame should be put on Palestinian extremists who have given Israel all the excuses needed to prevent Palestinian statehood, but it's foolish not to recognize the extremist element of Israeli society that also rejects the Palestinian's right to exist (see the Likud party's resolution to never allow a Palestinian state) and that has opposed every de-escalation of this conflict. It's foolish not to recognize that the Palestinian people have been under a blockade that constitutes an act of war for most of the last 50 years. And it's foolish to ignore that there are extremist Israeli settlers systemically settling the best Palestinian land that they can.

As long as there is conflict these extremists who reject a two-state solution can continue to redraw their borders. They even objected to the Israeli security wall because they feared it would become a limit to Israeli territory that they wanted to keep appropriating from Palestinians.

This element of Israeli society deserves to be recognized for their consistent efforts to prolong and escalate this conflict. "Greater Israel" advocates deny the Palestinians' right to exist just as the extremists in Palestine deny the right of Israel to exist.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 60 • Views: 307,254 • Replies: 7,076

 
Endymion
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 10:39 pm

i am shocked. i've never seen these maps before.
thank you for posting them up
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 12:55 am
I'm speechless.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 01:44 am
I'm always surprised that anyone is still surprised to see it mapped out. Here's a simple overview of how this came about (takes a while to load).

Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 06:21 am
Israel has also systematic ignored and/or violated the terms of General Assembly Resolution 181 which allowed for the creation of the state of Israel in 1947. Click here to read the United Nations plan for the partition of Palestine.

In addition to RG's maps, there is a map which i once found which was drawn before the 1947 partition of Palestine, and which outlines the territory which Zionists thought they should get to recreate their "traditional homeland. I think i found it at the Jewish Virtual Library, which can hardly be said to be an anti-Israeli source. I'll go see if i can find it again.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 06:25 am
Thanks, Robert.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 06:32 am
The map below is not the map which i referred to--i have not yet found that map, which was quite detailed. It is also only fair to admit that this map comes from a pro-Palestinian web site (which by inference, is anti-Israeli). Nevertheless, in crude form, it does show what the other map i had in mind shows, although in less detail:

http://lw.palestineremembered.com/Maps/New/Map_GreaterIsreal.gif

The significance of the other map to which i referred is that it was drawn by Zionists, before 1947, and shows that they thought they were entitled to march their borders into southern Lebanon and virtually to the gates of Damascus and Amman. As i have time, i will continue to search for that map.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 06:35 am
yes i can, i can look at that map and say israel does not systemically appropriate land

you should really set harder tasks, like rubbing your stomach and patting your head, now that's tricky
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 06:56 am
Bingo ! ! !

http://www.mideastweb.org/map_zionistpal.gif

This is from:

"Statement of the Zionist Organization Regarding Palestine
Presented to the Paris Peace Conference (with proposed map of Zionist borders)
February 3, 1919 "

Lest anyone allege that this is anti-Israeli propaganda, this map is taken from the web site of the Zionism Israel Center, which describes itself, in part, on the "About" page as follows:

Quote:
Zionism & Israel Center is part of a network of Web sites supporting fair play for Israel by providing basic facts and informed opinion. Zionism & Israel Center is maintained by a group of volunteers, who subscribe to the following political principles:

* The Jewish people have the right to a national home in Israel

* Israel has the right to exist

* Jewish nationalism is as legitimate as the nationalist movement of any other people.


The point is, Zionists have had this plan for a hell of a lot longer than Israel has existed.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 07:46 am
That's a great illustration. I remember looking for maps of the settlements to make a point a couple of years ago. If I had had this set of maps it would have made point much clearer.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 08:30 am
No matter how you look at it or any other map…a person should be able to feel empathy for the Jews who feel that Jews have a right to a homeland.

If I were a Jew, I suspect I would be an ardent Zionist.

That being said, however, if I were a Palestinian or an Arab…I suspect I would be furious with what has happened and be trying with all my might to rid the area of Israel.

If ever there were a “no win” situation…the notion of Israel being carved out of the Arabian Peninsula idea is such a circumstance.

In another thread dealing with the Middle East, I mentioned that Jews, Arabs, and Muslims had lived in relative harmony in that area of hundreds upon hundreds of years…until the state of Israel came into existence. Then all hell broke loose"hatreds flared; attacks came; retaliations were made; recriminations"and chaos descended on Zion.

Upon further reflection, I probably should have moved the beginning of the chaos back to the early 20th century when the Zionist movement earnestly began. The disharmony increased as mere talk of a Jewish state began.

It will never work out. The people over there, Jew and non-Jew alike, will live their lives in chaos and hate and attack and retaliation…and their children and the children of those children…and the children of those children will also.

Unless the obvious solution is accepted.

No state there!

Not a one state or two states solution…but a no state solution.

International control of the region.

The Jews can still have their homeland…only somewhere else--preferably in the United States where its integrity can be guaranteed.

And the right of any Jew who wants to live in that area must be guaranteed and protected by whatever International body is mandated to control the area.

BUT NO STATES CAN BE ALLOWED TO EXIST IN THE AREA COVERED BY THAT MAP!
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 08:49 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

The point is, Zionists have had this plan for a hell of a lot longer than Israel has existed.


Herzl already wrote such in "Judenstaat", published in 1896:

http://i43.tinypic.com/xnz2ip.jpg

Quote:
PALESTINE OR ARGENTINE?

Shall we choose Palestine or Argentine? We shall take what is given
us, and what is selected by Jewish public opinion. The Society will
determine both these points.

Argentine is one of the most fertile countries in the world, extends
over a vast area, has a sparse population and a mild climate. The
Argentine Republic would derive considerable profit from the cession
of a portion of its territory to us. The present infiltration of Jews
has certainly produced some discontent, and it would be necessary to
enlighten the Republic on the intrinsic difference of our new
movement.

Palestine is our ever-memorable historic home. The very name of
Palestine would attract our people with a force of marvellous potency.
If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in
return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should
there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost
of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State
remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our
existence. The sanctuaries of Christendom would be safeguarded by
assigning to them an extra-territorial status such as is well-known to
the law of nations. We should form a guard of honor about these
sanctuaries, answering for the fulfilment of this duty with our
existence. This guard of honor would be the great symbol of the
solution of the Jewish Question after eighteen centuries of Jewish
suffering.

Translation via project gutenberg
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 09:19 am
@Setanta,
Taken from the wikipedia reference to "Jordan," the following seems to imply that the Jews got a bait and switch:

" More than 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the Jordan river and was known as 'Transjordan'."

Many Palestineans may already be living in their state. Somehow it went to the Hashemite family? To me it sounds like the Brits were trying to do some strange horse trading with their spoils from WWI?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 09:28 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Many Palestineans may already be living in their state. Somehow it went to the Hashemite family? To me it sounds like the Brits were trying to do some strange horse trading with their spoils from WWI?

Certainly Palestinians may have lived in Jordan. And Beduins, and Jordanians.
And in the 19th century the Ottomans settled Circassian, Caucasian, and other refugees there.

From Britannica:
Quote:
During World War I the Arabs joined the British against the Ottomans. In a revolt of 1916, in which they were assisted by Colonel T.E. Lawrence, the Arabs severed the Hejaz Railway. In July 1917 the army of Prince Fayṣal ibn Husayn (of the Hāshimite [or Hashemite] dynasty) captured Al-ʿAqabah, and by October 1918 Amman and Damascus were in Allied hands. In 1920 the Conference of San Remo in Italy created two mandates; one, over Palestine, was given to Great Britain, and the other, over Syria, went to France. This act effectively separated the area now occupied by Israel and Jordan from that of Syria. In November 1920 ʿAbdullāh, Fayṣal’s brother, arrived in Maʿān (then part of the Hejaz) with 2,000 armed supporters intent on gathering together tribes to attack the French, who had forced Fayṣal to relinquish his newly founded kingdom in Syria. By April 1921, however, the British had decided that ʿAbdullāh would take over as ruler of what then became known as Transjordan.



Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 09:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
So the Brits gave all of Transjordan to one family, and the Jews were given a booby prize. Sounds like a transaction from a nation of shopkeepers.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 09:49 am
@Foofie,
Map of the Holy Land (Palestine) prepared by Rabbi J. Schwarz of Jerusalem for his book, History and Geography of Palestine, in 1845:
http://i41.tinypic.com/n36q6b.jpg
Original source, large map.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 11:39 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Is there some knowledge that should be gleaned from this map by Rabbi Black?
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 02:30 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
That being said, however, if I were a Palestinian or an Arab…I suspect I would be furious with what has happened and be trying with all my might to rid the area of Israel.


Many prominent Israelis have said that if they were Palestinians they'd be terrorists. I may dig up some examples but they are surprising because it's not just Israeli doves who say this, some of the most hawkish Israelis say the same.

Quote:
It will never work out. The people over there, Jew and non-Jew alike, will live their lives in chaos and hate and attack and retaliation…and their children and the children of those children…and the children of those children will also.

Unless the obvious solution is accepted.

No state there!

Not a one state or two states solution…but a no state solution.

International control of the region.


I think this has less chances of being realized (much less working) than a two-state solution.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 03:07 pm
Finally, some common sense on this issue.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 03:16 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Quote:
I think this (no state rather than one or two state solution) has less chances of being realized (much less working) than a two-state solution.


I agree that it has less chance of being realized...but I disagree completely that is has less chance of working.

The two state solution, in my opinion, has NO CHANCE of working--so even if the no state solution has no chance, they are even...not with any one being "less."

So long as there is a state of Israel in the Middle East (and in a two state solution, there WILL BE a state of Israel in the Middle East)...and there are Arabs or Muslims living there...

....there is absolutely no reason to suspect that there will be anything even remotedly resembling peace in that area.

I dispise and despair of that being the case...but I cannot think of a surer bet than that it is the case.

 

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