22
   

The moral differences between the holocaust and bombing Japan

 
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 10:24 am
@farmerman,
Just to make it clear, 'academic' was the term I used lightly.

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 10:53 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Senior military personnel told their Emperor that we cud only nuke them ONCE.
It is possible that he might have believed them, until August 9th (but not August 1Oth).

I don't think the A-bombs were the reason Japan surrendered though. I think it was the way we rolled through Okinawa.

Japan had thought Okinawa impregnable. It was quite a shock to them when we plowed through their defenses and kept on coming.

The thought of us plowing through their home islands in the same manner that we had just plowed through Okinawa was quite unsettling to the Japanese government.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 10:57 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
oralloy wrote:
If we maneuvered Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, then Japan maneuvered us into dropping the A-bombs on them.

I enjoyed the way u put that!
However, Roosevelt did provoke the Japs,
as a backdoor into the war in Europe.
In retrospect, I must approve his choice.
It wud have been a massive error of strategy
for him to let the Nazis take Russian oil
(tho it wud have been fun to watch the communists be defeated).

Roosevelt was just reacting to the way Japan was using our resources to brutally massacre the civilians of neighboring states.

He did not want American resources being used to perpetrate atrocities.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 10:58 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
On reflection, it occurs to me
that we never presented them with a bill for either of those boms.
Those things were expensive.

For that matter, to this DAY, I don't believe that the Japs
have paid us for the damages that thay inflicted on Pearl Harbor, either.

Japan paid us back by becoming our close friend during the Cold War. They were a convenient block to Soviet activity in the area.


Japan is also conveniently situated in regards to China.

The chain of islands running from Japan through Okinawa and down to Taiwan is perfect for a blockade of the East China Sea, and we have air bases on Okinawa and near Hiroshima that will allow fighter jets to patrol such a blockade (and a Navy base near Nagasaki that will allow a strong submarine presence to be maintained).

When the Chinese government ponders whether to start a war with their neighbors, our bases in Japan will likely prompt them to choose peace.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 11:07 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Roosevelt was just reacting to the way Japan was using our resources to brutally massacre the civilians of neighboring states.

He did not want American resources being used to perpetrate atrocities.


We used our own resources to do the same throughout history so why worry if others do it? We have used our wealth to influence our neighbors to be like us and we killed many of them with our resources.


President Franklin Roosevelt signs the Wheeler-Howard Act, better known as the Indian Reorganization Act, which pushes tribal governments to adopt U.S.–style governance. The Indian Reorganization Act (IRA) offers federal subsidies to tribes that adopt constitutions like that of the United States and replace their governments with city council–style governments. The new governments lack the checks and balances of power that had inspired the Founding Fathers of the United States. The transcripts from hearings on the IRA quote American Indian elders questioning the format of the IRA governments.

“While a number of opportunities for Indian revitalization were initiated under the IRA, its promise was never fully realized. The era of allotment had taken a heavy toll on tribes. Many of the old customs and traditions that could have been restored under the IRA climate of cultural concern had vanished during the interim period since the tribes had gone to the reservations. The experience of self-government according to Indian traditions had eroded and, while the new constitutions were akin to the traditions of some tribes, they were completely foreign to others. The new constitutions called for election of council members and were based on the old 'boss farmer' districts, which had been drawn when the allotment policy dictated that the Indians would be taught to farm. Familiar cultural groupings and methods of choosing leadership gave way to the more abstract principles of American democracy, which viewed people as interchangeable and communities as geographical marks on a map.

“Although there were some variations, in general the new tribal constitutions and bylaws were standardized and largely followed the Anglo-American system of organizing people. Traditional Indians of almost every tribe strongly objected to this method of organizing and criticized the IRA as simply another means of imposing white institutions on the tribes. In some of the constitutions the traditional Indians were able to protect themselves by insisting that the tribal government derive from the more ancient form of government and not be subjected in its operation to the powers that the people had allocated to it. Other tribes rejected the idea of a formal, and small, tribal council governing them and demanded that the tribal council consist of the whole tribe meeting in concert. Experiences proved this approach to have its merits and shortcomings.”—Vine Deloria Jr. and Clifford Lyttle, American Indians, American Justice, 1983
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 11:16 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
He did not want American resources being used to perpetrate atrocities.


You really are a compulsive liar, Oralboy. The US has long used its resources, much of those resources stolen from other countries to commit heinous atrocities all over the globe.

The Japanese simply copied the US system of brutalizing countries in order to steal their wealth. The Japanese saw what the US did to the Philippines, to Cuba, to all the Central and South American countries. They saw what European countries had been doing to Asia countries for so long as as a new world power, they figured they had that same right.

Now don't go off half cocked like that idiot Farmerman or Setanta or ... and think I am justifying Japanese invasions and Japanese atrocities for I most surely am not. I just think, like you do, that the US [and others] should be held to account for its long history of war crimes/crimes against humanity/terrorism.


Quote:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-korean-war-the-unknown-war-the-coverup-of-us-war-crimes/23742

The Korean War: The “Unknown War”. The Coverup of US War Crimes

By Sherwood Ross
Global Research, March 16, 2011

The Korean War, a.k.a. the “Unknown War,” was, in fact, headline news at the time it was being fought(1950-53). Given the Cold War hatreds of the combatants, though, a great deal of the reportage was propaganda, and much of what should have been told was never told. News of the worst atrocities perpetrated against civilians was routinely suppressed and the full story of the horrific suffering of the Korean people—who lost 3-million souls of a total population of 23-million— has yet to be told in full. Filling in many of the blank spaces is Bruce Cumings, chair of the Department of History at the University of Chicago, whose book “The Korean War”(Modern Library Chronicles) takes an objective look at the conflict. In one review, Publishers Weekly says, “In this devastating work he shows how little the U.S. knew about who it was fighting, why it was fighting, and even how it was fighting.

Though the North Koreans had a reputation for viciousness, according to Cumings, U.S. soldiers actually engaged in more civilian massacres. This included dropping over half a million tons of bombs and thousands of tons of napalm, more than was loosed on the entire Pacific theater in World War II, almost indiscriminately. The review goes on to say, “Cumings deftly reveals how Korea was a clear precursor to Vietnam: a divided country, fighting a long anti-colonial war with a committed and underestimated enemy; enter the U.S., efforts go poorly, disillusionment spreads among soldiers, and lies are told at top levels in an attempt to ignore or obfuscate a relentless stream of bad news. For those who like their truth unvarnished, Cumings’s history will be a fresh, welcome take on events that seemed to have long been settled.”

Interviewed in two one-hour installments by Lawrence Velvel, Dean of the Massachusetts School of Law at Andover, producers of Comcast’s “Books of Our Time” with the first installment being shown on Sunday, March 20th, Cumings said U.S. coverage of the war was badly slanted. Hanson Baldwin, the military correspondent for The New York Times, described “North Koreans as locusts, like Nazis, like vermin, who come shrieking on. I mean, this is really hard stuff to read in an era when you don’t get away with that kind of thinking anymore.” Cumings adds, “Rapes were extremely common. Koreans in the South will still say that that was one of the worst things of the war (was how)many American soldiers were raping Korean women.”

Cumings said he was able to draw upon a lot of South Korean research that has come out since the nation democratized in the 1990s about the massacres of Korean civilians. This has been the subject of painstaking research by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Seoul and Cumings describes the results as “horrific.” Atrocities by “our side, the South Koreans (ran) six to one ahead of the North Koreans in terms of killing civilians, whereas most Americans would think North Koreans would just as soon kill a civilian to look at him.” The numbers of civilians killed in South Korea by the government, Cumings said, even dwarfed Spaniards murdered by dictator Francisco Franco, the general who overthrew the Madrid government in the 1936-1939 civil war. Cumings said about 100,000 South Koreans were killed in political violence between 1945 and 1950 and perhaps as many as 200,000 more were killed during the early months of the war. This compares to about 200,000 civilians put to death in Spain in Franco’s political massacres. In all, Korea suffered 3 million civilian dead during the 1950-53 war, more killed than the 2.7 million Japan suffered during all of World War II.

One of the worst atrocities was perpetrated by the South Korean police at the small city of Tae Jun. They executed 7,000 political prisoners while Central Intelligence Agency and U.S. military officials looked on, Cumings said. To compound the crime, the Pentagon blamed the atrocity on the Communists, Cumings said. “The Joint Chiefs of Staff classified the photographs of it because they make it clear who’s doing it, and they don’t let the photographs out until 1999 when a Korean finally got them declassified.” To top that off, the historian says, “the Pentagon did a video movie called ‘Crime of Korea’ where you see shots of pits that go on for like a football field, pit after pit of dead people, and (actor) Humphrey Bogart in a voice-over says, ‘someday the Communists will pay for this, someday we’ll get the full totals and believe me we’ll get the exact, accurate totals of the people murdered here and we will make these war criminals pay.’ Now this is a complete reversal of black and white, done as a matter of policy.” Cumings adds that these events represent “a very deep American responsibility for the regime that we promoted, really more than any other in East Asia (and that) was our creation in the late Forties.” Other atrocities, such as the one at No Gun village, Cumings terms “an American massacre of women and children,” which he lays at the feet of the U.S. military.

Initially, reporters from U.S. magazines’ “Look,” “Saturday Evening Post,” “Collier’s,” and “Life,” could report on anything they saw, the historian said. They reported that “the troops are shooting civilians, the South Korean police are awful, they’re opening up pits and putting hundreds of people in them. This is all true.” Within six months, though, U.S. reporters were muzzled by censors, meaning, “you can’t say anything bad about our South Korean ally. Even if you see them blowing an old lady’s head apart, you can’t say that.” Even though his writings on Korea years after the war ended were not censored, New York Times reporter David Halberstam wrote a book on the Korean War (The Coldest Winter”) in which “he doesn’t mention the bombing of the North (and) mentions the three-year U.S. occupation of South Korea in one sentence, without giving it any significance,” Cumings said. Besides rape, the Pentagon was firebombing North Korean cities more intensively than any of those it firebombed during World War II. Where it was typical for U.S. bombing to destroy between 40 and 50 percent of a city in that war, the destruction rate in North Korea was much higher: Shin Eui Ju, on the Chinese border, 95 percent destroyed; Pyongyang, 85 percent; and Hamhung, an industrial city, 80 percent.”By the end of 1951, there weren’t many bombing targets left in North Korea.”

Cumings believed that Douglas MacArthur, the General who commanded U.S. forces in Korea was prejudiced against Asians and badly underestimated their fighting capabilities. On the day the North Koreans invaded the South in force on June 25, 1950, MacArthur boasted, according to Cumings, “’I can beat these guys with one hand tied behind my back’ and within a week he wants a bunch of divisions, and within a month he’s got almost all of the trained American combat forces in the world either in Korea or on their way to Korea.” MacArthur’s slight of the fighting trim of North Korean units was shared by other high American officials. “(John Foster) Dulles, (then U.S. delegate to the United Nations) even says things like, ‘They must put dope into these guys (because) I don’t know how they can fight so fanatically.’” Cumings goes on to explain, the North Korean soldiers “had three or four years of fighting in the Chinese Civil War (for the Communists), so they were crack troops, and our intelligence knew about these people but completely underestimated them, and a lot of Americans got killed because they underestimated them.” Again, when the CIA had warned MacArthur that 200,000 Chinese troops were crossing the border into North Korea, MacArthur said, “I’ll take care of it, don’t worry about it, Chinamen can’t fight.” However, the Chinese routed U.S. forces, clearing them out of Korea in two weeks. “Sometimes I wonder why the world isn’t worse off than it is,” the historian reflected, “because people make such unbelievably stupid decisions that will affect the lives of hundreds of thousands of people (based) on stupid biases.”

The U.S. use of air power to inflict widespread devastation had a profound impact on future North Korean military practice. To escape the rain of death the North Korean military—starting at the time of the Korean War—built 15,000 underground facilities, putting whole factories, dormitories, and even airfields underground. “So you have jets flying into the side of mountains,” Cumings says, as well as 1 million men and women under arms in a nation of 24 million—so that one in every 24 people is in the military. The U.S. military believes the North Koreans have built their nuclear weapons facilities underground—plural, that is, as it is possible they have one or two backups if a facility is destroyed by an enemy attack. While the U.S. today is concerned that North Korea is developing the means to deliver a nuclear weapon, Cummings said the country “has been under nuclear threat since the Korean War. “Our war plans, for decades, called for using nuclear weapons very early in a new war. That’s one reason there hasn’t been a new war,” Cumings said. The armistice that terminated the peninsular war banned the introduction of new and different quality weapons into the region but the U.S. in violation of the pact inserted nuclear-tipped “Honest John” missiles into Korea in 1958. “They said, ‘Well, they’re (always) bringing in new MiGs and everything, so we can do this.’ But to go from conventional weapons to nuclear weapons essentially obliterated the article of the (armistice,) Cumings said. The U.S. has relied so heavily on nuclear deterrent in Korea that one retired general said it has reached a point where “the South Korean army doesn’t think it has to fight in a new war because we’re going to wipe out the North Koreans,” Cumings continued.

The historian said the North Koreans detonated their first nuclear device in 2006—-of about one-half kiloton equivalent (compared to the 20-kiloton bomb that leveled Hiroshima). Three years later, they detonated a 4- to 5-ton kiloton range bomb that could “certainly blast the hell out of a major city.” While Cumings doubts the North Koreans have yet to miniaturize a bomb so that it can ride on one of their medium-range missiles, there is nothing stopping them from, say, putting such a device aboard a freighter and detonating it upon reaching its port of destination. Cummings noted the North Koreans are “very good at manufacturing missiles” and have medium-range missiles “that are among the best in the world outside of the American bailiwick.” These are sold to Iran and Pakistan and, if fired from Korea, could reach all of Japan and the U.S. base on Okinawa, as well as all of South Korea. Any new war on the Korean peninsula, the historian says, “would be an absolute catastrophe” even though the general consensus is that the North Koreans have been unable yet to miniaturize a nuclear warhead.

Getting back to the Korean War, historian Cummings believes that all parties to the war bear some responsibility for its outbreak: “What they did was take an existing civil conflict that had been going on five years and take it to the level of a conventional war, and for that, they bear a lot of responsibility.” Both sides initiated pitched border battles from 1947 onward and the general in charge of the U.S. advisory group said “the South Koreans started more than half of these pitched battles along the 38th parallel border with North Korea between May and December of 1949,” Cumings discovered. “Hundreds of soldiers were dying on both sides and in August there nearly was a Korean War, a year before the one we know…(as the North Koreans pushed) down to the Ongjin Peninsula in the Yellow Sea south of the 38th Parallel” (but which is not contiguous to the rest of South Korea.)

Both the North’s Kim Il-sung and the South’s Syngman Rhee wanted to fight all-out at the time but were restrained by their American and Soviet advisers, respectively. The following year, after his troops came back from China, Kim Il-sung stationed his crack Sixth Division just north of Seoul and when hostilities broke out captured the South Korean capital in just three days. “Our intelligence knew about these (troops) but…completely underestimated them,” Cumings said, “and a lot of Americans got killed because they underestimated them.” The South did not develop the kind of military that the North Koreans did, and this is one of the truly hidden aspects of the Korean War. …The North Koreans had tens of thousands (50,000)of fighters in the Chinese Civil War they sent across the border as early as Spring of 1947,” Cumings said. This gave the North Koreans a cadre of battle-tested fighters that routed the Seoul government’s troops.

Because of the troops North Korea furnished the Chinese Communists, deep ties were forged between the two countries. “China was a kind of reliable rear area for training and for cementing a very close relationship,” Cumings said. “Our people in Washington (didn’t) begin to understand this….There (were) a lot of hard-liners in the Chinese military that really liked North Korea.” Nor did U.S. intelligence apparently take into account how repressive U.S. actions in South Korea might make its citizens unwilling to fight all-out for a U.S.-backed government run by strongman Rhee. American military officials in South Korea in the late Forties “were outlawing left-wing parties, knocking over left-wing people’s committees and things like this, for two years” on their own initiative, Cumings said. But the development of the containment doctrine and the start of the Cold War in 1947 put the official U.S. imprimatur on their ad hoc policies.

The Massachusetts School of Law, producers of “Educational Forum,” is purposefully dedicated to providing a quality, affordable education to students from minority, low-income, and immigrant households who would otherwise not have the opportunity to obtain a legal education. Through its conferences, publications and broadcasts, the law school also provides vital information on important issues to the public.

Sherwood Ross formerly worked for major dailies and wire services. He is a media consultant to MSLAW. Reach him at [email protected]
0 Replies
 
peter jeffrey cobb
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 11:41 am
@peter jeffrey cobb,
So I was just wondering are there safeguards set?
We say a policeman have the right to kill a person if this action is happening.
What action happening do we as a world society say its ok to kill 200,00 people if this is happening? Since the atomic bombs exploded and the holocaust happened We as the World have build thousands of nuclear weapons and we have had genocide occur.
reasoning logic
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 12:01 pm
@peter jeffrey cobb,
Quote:
The war I went to estimates of up to 200,000 people died and over 400,00 wounded.


What war were you in?
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 12:06 pm
@peter jeffrey cobb,
Quote:
What action happening do we as a world society say its ok to kill 200,00 people if this is happening?


I don't think the world agrees that killing 200,000 people or 50,000 people is a good thing, Peter. The world agrees that countries that do these things should be held to account.

Here's a good example of that.

Quote:
Nicaragua v. United States

Nicaragua v. United States
Court International Court of Justice
Full case name Case Concerning Military and Paramilitary Activities in and Against Nicaragua (Nicaragua v. United States of America)
Date decided June 27, 1986
Citation(s) 1986 I.C.J. 14
Judges sitting Nagendra Singh, Guy Ledreit de Lacharrière, Roberto Ago, Mohammed Bedjaoui, Taslim Olawale Elias, Manfred Lachs, Kéba Mbaye, Ni Zhengyu, Shigeru Oda, José María Ruda, Stephen Schwebel, José Sette-Camara, Robert Jennings, Claude-Albert Colliard (ad hoc)
Case opinions
Separate Opinion: Nagendra Singh
Separate Opinion: Manfred Lachs
Separate Opinion: José María Ruda
Separate Opinion: Taslim Olawale Elias
Separate Opinion: Roberto Ago
Separate Opinion: José Sette-Camara
Separate Opinion: Ni Zhengyu
Dissent: Shigeru Oda
Dissent: Stephen Schwebel
Dissent: Robert Jennings

The Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America[1] was a 1984 case of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in which the ICJ ruled in favor of Nicaragua and against the United States and awarded reparations to Nicaragua. The ICJ held that the U.S. had violated international law by supporting the Contras in their rebellion against the Nicaraguan government and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The United States refused to participate in the proceedings after the Court rejected its argument that the ICJ lacked jurisdiction to hear the case. The U.S. later blocked enforcement of the judgment by the United Nations Security Council and thereby prevented Nicaragua from obtaining any actual compensation.[2] The Nicaraguan government finally withdrew the complaint from the court in September 1992 (under the later, post-FSLN, government of Violeta Chamorro), following a repeal of the law requiring the country to seek compensation.[3]
The Court found in its verdict that the United States was "in breach of its obligations under customary international law not to use force against another State", "not to intervene in its affairs", "not to violate its sovereignty", "not to interrupt peaceful maritime commerce", and "in breach of its obligations under Article XIX of the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the Parties signed at Managua on 21 January 1956."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 12:19 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
We used our own resources to do the same throughout history so why worry if others do it?
Point out in history where we, as a sovereign nation, caused the deaths of over 100 MILLION people in a single conflict?

wow, this oughta be good.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 12:24 pm
@reasoning logic,
Vine DeLoria's own son has refuted most all of what his father stood for. Amerinds never recognized the concept pf sovereignty. This thinking would of necessity cover Innuits, Laps, Mayans, and all other indigenous tribes of the several continents.

There were , what Id call atrocities committed on MAerinds but most of these were by the Spanish Conquitdors, the French and t especially British, The Amerind populations qere pretty much wiped out in the names of European sovereignty and the "wood scrambles" for the rich pine, oak, beech, and Ironwood(the best keelson and prow wood for first rate ships) forests of North AMerica.
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 12:31 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Point out in history where we, as a sovereign nation, caused the deaths of over 100 MILLION people in a single conflict?


Has anyone suggested that, Farmerman? Can you say straw man and red herring?

Quote:
wow, this oughta be good.


As good as your "question" above?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 12:39 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
There were , what Id call atrocities committed on MAerinds but most of these were by the Spanish Conquitdors, the French and t especially British,


Pointing out others crimes has never been a solid defense for one's own crimes, but you already know that, Farmer, and still you persist in these lies, in this gross dishonesty of yours.

"academic", you say?

Perhaps you missed this, Framerman the "academic".

Quote:
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/georegions/northamerica/UnitedStates02.htm

The US and the Crime of Genocide Against Native Americans

Lindsay Glauner

excerpted from: Lindsay Glauner, The Need for Accountability and Reparation: 1830-1976 the United States Government's Role in the Promotion, Implementation, and Execution of the Crime of Genocide Against Native Americans , 51 DePaul Law Review 911-961, 911-917 (Spring 2002)(349 Footnotes)

On September 8, 2000, the head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) formally apologized for the agency's participation in the "ethnic cleansing" of Western tribes. From the forced relocation and assimilation of the "sauvage" to the white man's way of life to the forced sterilization of Native Americans, the BIA set out to "destroy all things Indian." Through the exploration of the United States' Federal Indian policy, it is evident that this policy intended to "destroy, in whole or in part," the Native American population. The extreme disparity in the number of Native American people living within the United States' borders at the time Columbus arrived, approximately ten million compared to the approximate 2.4 million Indians and Eskimos alive in the United States today, is but one factor that illustrates the success of the government's plan of "Manifest Destiny."

No longer can we remain indifferent and justify these acts of genocide committed by the United States government, its agencies, and its personnel against Native Americans as a result of colonization or the need to establish a prosperous union. Instead, the United States government, its agencies, and those involved with carrying out the measures designed to inflict genocidal acts against the Native American population must be held in violation of customary international law, as well as conventional international law, as proscribed in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Genocide Convention).
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 05:07 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
The Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America[1] was a 1984 case of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in which the ICJ ruled in favor of Nicaragua and against the United States and awarded reparations to Nicaragua. The ICJ held that the U.S. had violated international law by supporting the Contras in their rebellion against the Nicaraguan government and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The United States refused to participate in the proceedings after the Court rejected its argument that the ICJ lacked jurisdiction to hear the case. The U.S. later blocked enforcement of the judgment by the United Nations Security Council and thereby prevented Nicaragua from obtaining any actual compensation


Why do you suppose setanta and others don't share these parts of our history?
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 05:30 pm
@reasoning logic,
Setanta, Farmer, Finn, ... don't share these because they don't want to know about them. It's kind of a willful ignorance. What you don't know about you don't have to have qualms about.

But they aren't the only ones. There's Region Philbus, Lustig Andrei, Maxdonacona, Glitterbag, Frank Apisa, Engineer, Jespah, Hawkeye, BillRM, Oralloy, Edgar, Revellette, Firefly, ... . The list is really quite long.

"The media are a pitiful lot. They don't give us any history, they don't give us any analysis, they don't tell us anything. They don't raise the most basic questions: Who has the most weapons of mass destruction in the world by far? Who has used weapons of mass destruction more than any other nation? Who has killed more people in this world with weapons of mass destruction than any other nation? The answer: the United States."

- Howard Zinn

And what did the Reagan government do to these poor people?

Quote:

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

part II

CIA COVERT OPERATIONS IN CENTRAL AMERICA, CIA MANIPULATION OF THE PRESS, CIA EXPERIMENTATION ON THE U.S. PUBLIC

by John Stockwell

...

The United States CIA is running 50 covert actions, destabilizing further almost one third of the countries in the world today....

By the way, everything I'm sharing with you tonight is in the public record. The 50 covert actions - these are secret, but that has been leaked to us by members of the oversight committee of the Congress. I urge you not to take my word for anything. I'm going to stand here and tell you and give you examples of how our leaders lie. Obviously I could be lying. The only way you can figure it out for yourself is to educate yourselves. The French have a saying, `them that don't do politics will be done'. If you don't fill your mind eagerly with the truth, dig it out from the records, go and see for yourself, then your mind remains blank and your adrenaline pumps, and you can be mobilized and excited to do things that are not in your interest to do....

Nicaragua is not the biggest covert action, it is the most famous one. Afghanistan is, we spent several hundred million dollars in Afghanistan. We've spent somewhat less than that, but close, in Nicaragua....

[When the U.S. doesn't like a government], they send the CIA in, with its resources and activists, hiring people, hiring agents, to tear apart the social and economic fabric of the country, as a technique for putting pressure on the government, hoping that they can make the government come to the U.S.'s terms, or the government will collapse altogether and they can engineer a coup d'etat, and have the thing wind up with their own choice of people in power.

Now ripping apart the economic and social fabric of course is fairly textbook-ish. What we're talking about is going in and deliberately creating conditions where the farmer can't get his produce to market, where children can't go to school, where women are terrified inside their homes as well as outside their homes, where government administration and programs grind to a complete halt, where the hospitals are treating wounded people instead of sick people, where international capital is scared away and the country goes bankrupt. If you ask the state department today what is their official explanation of the purpose of the Contras, they say it's to attack economic targets, meaning, break up the economy of the country. Of course, they're attacking a lot more.

To destabilize Nicaragua beginning in 1981, we began funding this force of Somoza's ex-national guardsmen, calling them the contras (the counter-revolutionaries). We created this force, it did not exist until we allocated money. We've armed them, put uniforms on their backs, boots on their feet, given them camps in Honduras to live in, medical supplies, doctors, training, leadership, direction, as we've sent them in to de-stabilize Nicaragua. Under our direction they have systematically been blowing up graineries, saw mills, bridges, government offices, schools, health centers. They ambush trucks so the produce can't get to market. They raid farms and villages. The farmer has to carry a gun while he tries to plow, if he can plow at all.

If you want one example of hard proof of the CIA's involvement in this, and their approach to it, dig up `The Sabotage Manual', that they were circulating throughout Nicaragua, a comic-book type of a paper, with visual explanations of what you can do to bring a society to a halt, how you can gum up typewriters, what you can pour in a gas tank to burn up engines, what you can stuff in a sewage to stop up the sewage so it won't work, things you can do to make a society simply cease to function.

Systematically, the contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. You remember the assassination manual? that surfaced in 1984. It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror. This is a technique that they're using to traumatize the society so that it can't function.

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these
things to the children.

This is nobody's propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras. The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters'. He says they're the moral equivalent of our founding fathers. And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.

READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE AT,

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html

AND PART 1 AT,

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_1.html


reasoning logic
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 06:09 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Setanta, Farmer, Finn, ... don't share these because they don't want to know about them. It's kind of a willful ignorance.


I thought it was because they do not care about these other people.

I wonder why they can not see these people as their relatives instead of as their enemies.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 06:23 pm
@reasoning logic,
your head is full of gelatinous mung,

The fact I that , in WWII we all cared about our bnation and that of our ALLIES in fighting and fully defeating the horror that the Axis powers represented.
Ignoring and somehow excusing the genocide, the rape, plunder, and dehumanizing occupation of the world by the AXIS is probably what we have to expect as time separates us from the event. Yet your willful ignorance of the lessons of history makes me ill.
You and JTT can mentally fellate each other and you can keep hunting for and presenting your senseless videos.



JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 06:31 pm
@farmerman,
How "academic" of you, Farmerman. You never cease to amaze.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 06:33 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Ignoring and somehow excusing the genocide, the rape, plunder, and dehumanizing occupation of the world by the AXIS is probably what we have to expect as time separates us from the event. Yet your willful ignorance of the lessons of history makes me ill.
You and JTT can mentally fellate each other and you can keep hunting for and presenting your senseless videos.


The problem that I see is how you are able to see the atrocities committed by others but when a world court speaks about the atrocities we have committed you seem to have no concern.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Aug, 2013 06:34 pm
Since there are few pre-WWII German-Jews in Germany anymore, and they were not interested in baseball even before the Holocaust, comparing the Holocaust to bombing Japan is ridiculous, since after the bombing the Japanese started to enjoy baseball. Cause and effect. No such cause and effect can be seen with Jews in Germany, before WWII, or after.

 

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