Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I have cited several untrue statements you have made...

Nope. You cited true statements from me and then made baseless claims that they were untrue.

Frank Apisa wrote:

...and all you do is to say they are true without any proof.

That which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

You asserted that my statements were hyperbole without offering a shred of evidence to back up your charge.

I was right to dismiss your accusations in a like manner.

And I've offered proof of my claims over and over again. I don't remember if any of the times were in reply to you, but I've left proof all throughout this thread. Very likely some of the posts where I offered proof were the same posts that you are pretending are not true.

Here it is again: Since there are no legitimate reasons for banning harmless cosmetic features like a pistol grip and a flash suppressor, doing so would violate Rational Basis Review (and the courts might even apply a sterner standard of scrutiny).

So there is your proof that the Democrats are trying to violate the Constitution.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not dislike the truth...

You seem to have a curious objection to me telling the truth.

Frank Apisa wrote:

the truth is that you do not stick to the truth very much.

Says the guy who can't show a single untrue statement on my part.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I can point out the untruths...and you can counter that by actually proving that the statement is true.

But you don't. When I cite an untruth...all you do is to insist it is true.

Entertaining...but not particularly intellectual.

"Making a baseless claim that the truth isn't real" hardly counts as "citing an untruth". If you'd like to have people respond with actual proof, you might want to try making a more credible challenge to their statements.

And just in case you missed it above: Since there are no legitimate reasons for banning harmless cosmetic features like a pistol grip and a flash suppressor, doing so would violate Rational Basis Review (and the courts might even apply a sterner standard of scrutiny).

So there is your proof that the Democrats are trying to violate the Constitution. Twice in the same post now.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I have absolutely no desire to discount the Constitution...that is another of your distortions.

Wrong. You have responded to evidence that the Democrats are plotting to violate the Constitution, by making false claims that they were only trying to change the Constitution.

Covering for people who are trying to violate the Constitution is quite dismissive of it.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I, like many people, feel it is a useful document, but that it can be changed when change is warranted. In fact, the Constitution itself suggests it can be changed when change is warranted. If you are going to insist it cannot be...then perhaps you are being dismissive of the Constitution.

You are free to try to change the Constitution if you like.

But that does not justify you making false statements that the Democrats are trying to change the Constitution, when the reality is that the Democrats are trying to violate the Constitution.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Nope...but the nonsense you are spewing DOES!

The truth is not nonsense. No matter how inconvenient it is, it remains the truth.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Tsk, tsk...you did say you ALWAYS stick to the truth.

Yes. Your request that I stop telling the truth, is denied.

Frank Apisa wrote:

But you do not.

Says the guy who can't show a single untrue statement on my part.

Frank Apisa wrote:

And to suggest that I am requesting that you stop telling the truth is another distortion.

No, you've repeatedly and vigorously objected to my telling the truth, and now and then you even try to get me to stop.

Frank Apisa wrote:

You really gotta get a handle on that, Oralloy.

I'm doing fine. Relentlessly sticking to the truth is a winning strategy.

4 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

You are glossing over the facts and obfuscating the truth.

Much like the situation in the school where the evil one was the only armed
person, the Muslim terrorists was the only armed person in the dining hall.

Your lack of understanding makes you more irrational then ever

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@oralloy,

Changes within our culture are what's needed here.

Individuals need to stand toe to toe with evil and defeat it.

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@H2O MAN,

no idea

I'm not a American Democrat or liberal.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

But you don't feel a need to carry a fire extinguisher around with you when you leave your home

are you sure? it really is quite a visual - BillRM trotting around Florida with his gun and fire extinguisher strapped to his chest

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

You have no skin in the game

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Freedom is not an obsolete concept that was good for our ancestors, but now we in the present should give up.

Freedom is something that is going to remain part of American society until the end of time.

Right. Tell that to people who would still be slaves if we had not changed things from 19th century thinking.

C'mon, Oralloy. Things change...and laws change.

A bit of a difference between freedom and slavery maybe???

Frank Apisa wrote:

We most likely are not going to do it with regard to guns (sometimes a gun is just a gun, but sometimes it ain't!), but that does not make it unreasonable to want to see it.

I can't imagine wanting to see the end of American freedom.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Assault weapons are not "military style". They merely have harmless cosmetic features like a pistol grip and a flash suppressor.

And Americans have the right to have both assault weapons and handguns.

If some weapons are deemed dangerous to the public welfare they may be banned or more strictly regulated in the future. And that would be entirely Constitutional according to Justice Scalia.

Having a pistol grip and a flash suppressor does not make any gun dangerous to the public.

firefly wrote:

Your alleged "right" to those assault weapons may be only temporary, oralloy, it is not written in stone.

No, it is written in stone.

And good luck to any politicians in rural districts who intentionally vote to violate people's Constitutional rights (and without even having any good reason to do so).

Not that any amount of luck could ever save them from the voters.

firefly wrote:

One of the reasons for establishing the Constitution was to promote the general welfare. The problem with gun violence in this country, and the mass/multiple shootings which have taken place with alarming frequency in recent years, is something that affects the general welfare, and government should act to try to limit the scope of the problem.

Banning pistol grips and flash suppressors does nothing to limit the scope of any problem.

The only thing it does is deliberately violate the US Constitution for no reason.

firefly wrote:

That action may well take the form of tighter control over certain kinds of weapons,

Not assault weapons. That would violate Rational Basis Review. The government has no legitimate reason for banning pistol grips and flash suppressors.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Paul Harvey’s ‘If I Were The Devil’ Speech: 1964/65

If I were the prince of darkness,I would want to engulf the whole world in darkness.

I'd have a third of its real estate and four-fifths of its population, but I would not be happy until I had seized the ripest apple on the tree — thee.

So, I would set about however necessary to take over the United States.

I'd subvert the churches first, and I would begin with a campaign of whispers.

With the wisdom of a serpent, I would whisper to you as I whispered to Eve: "Do as you please."

To the young, I would whisper that the Bible is a myth. I would convince the children that man created God instead of the other way around. I'd confide that what's bad is good and what's good is square.

And the old, I would teach to pray after me, "Our Father, which are in Washington ..."

Then, I'd get organized, I'd educate authors in how to make lurid literature exciting so that anything else would appear dull and uninteresting.

I'd peddle narcotics to whom I could. I'd sell alcohol to ladies and gentlemen of distinction. I'd tranquilize the rest with pills.

If I were the devil, I'd soon have families at war with themselves, churches at war with themselves and nations at war with themselves until each, in its turn,was consumed.

And with promises of higher ratings, I'd have mesmerizing media fanning the flames.

If I were the devil, I would encourage schools to refine young intellect but neglect to discipline emotions. I'd tell teachers to let those students run wild. And before you knew it, you'd have drug-sniffing dogs and metal detectors at every schoolhouse door.

With a decade, I'd have prisons overflowing and judges promoting pornography.
Soon, I would evict God from the courthouse and the schoolhouse and them from the houses of Congress.

In his own churches, I would substitute psychology for religion and deify science. I'd lure priests and pastors into misusing boys and girls and church money.

If I were the devil, I'd take from those who have and give to those who wanted until I had killed the incentive of the ambitious.

And what do you bet? I could get whole states to promote gambling as the way to get rich?

I'd convince the young that marriage is old-fashioned, that swinging is more fun and that what you see on television is the way to be.

And thus, I could undress you in public and lure you into bed with diseases for which there are no cures.

In other words, if I were the devil, I'd just keep right on doing what he's doing.

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@oralloy,

More anti-American 'gun control' put in place by democrats now will only harm democrats in 2014 and 2016.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

If some weapons are deemed dangerous to the public welfare they may be banned or more strictly regulated in the future. And that would be entirely Constitutional according to Justice Scalia.

There happen to need to be some logical reason that one rifle is more deadly then another and so far I do not see how s flash suppressor and a pistol grip or a name have anything to do with how deadly a rifle happen to be.

Please give one reason why a so call assault rifle is more deadly then a similar rifle?

Not the magazine size it can hold or rate of fire and so on is difference.

Come on Firefly give a rational reason why so call assault rifles are more deadly and there can be ban over other rifles types.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

But you don't feel a need to carry a fire extinguisher around with you when you leave your home,

Sure do as a large fire extinguisher is the trunk of my car along with a large first aid kit, jumpers and so on.

In fact I had used such a extinguisher to save a sport car with an engine fire and the driver did not even offer to pay for a replacement.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Banning some politicians that are deemed dangerous to the welfare of America's public would work.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

BillRM trotting around Florida with his gun and fire extinguisher strapped to his chest

Will the sport car driver was happy that I was able to save his car and somehow if I save a car of your or even your life with a fire extinguisher or the large first aid kit or a gun you might change your silly tune.

Safety equipments I normally carry around with me had tend to benefit others more then me.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

I carry all sorts of useful items in my vehicles.
These items are with me so I can help myself and others out of a jam.

True story:

A dead pine tree was blown down by the wind and it blocked the road.
Two cars were on the other side when I arrived and I could see the driver of the first car was on his cell.
I jumped out and started moving the tree out of the way, the second guy got out and helped.
The guy on the cell emerged from his car picked up a twig and informed both of us that he had called the city for help.
What an asshole!

What kind of self reliant American is going to call someone to help them when they can easily help themselves and others without government intervention?

The cell phone guy has forgotten what it means to be self reliant.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy, whether you like it or not, a serious discussion about guns is about to take place in this country because this latest slaughter of children, by gun violence, is more than most people are willing to tolerate or ignore.

Every venue of our daily lives--schools, workplaces, houses of worship, supermarkets, shopping malls, and movie theaters--has fairly recently become the place of mass/multiple murders, all accomplished by firearms, with particular types of firearms most often used to accomplish those acts--there are definitely certain weapons of choice being used in these killings. And, when that sort of violence finally invaded our kindergarten classes, most people--including most NRA members--are now ready to try instituting some better sensible controls, and discussing various measures, to try to curb a problem which jeopardizes our quality of life in this country, and, in fact, potentially jeopardizes our very lives.

You apparently think that waving the 2nd Amendment ends the discussion, that it guarantees you some sort of inviolate right to obtain and possess any and all types of firearms and ammunition you want, and no one, including Supreme Court Justices, has the authority to tell you otherwise, or to limit your alleged "freedom" of gun ownership in any way. You are seriously deluding yourself by ignoring the comments by Justice Scalia that I have posted--he is telling you otherwise--limits can definitely be placed.

Continuing to chant the same manta, over, and over, and over, and simply dismissing contradictory views, or other people's legitimate concerns with the problem of gun violence in our society, displays an inability on your part to even discuss the problem--in fact, you seem to mainly deny the problem and just revert to babbling endlessly about your highly questionable alleged "rights" and "freedom" while your fellow citizens are getting mowed down at houses of worship, supermarkets, shopping malls, movie theaters, and elementary schools, by guns, in acts that are akin to domestic terrorism.

And, just as the government took action to protect the citizenry from other forms of terrorism, particularly involving planes, and limited the types of things people could take aboard planes, and subjected passengers to greater personal scrutiny, it needs to take some action to better protect citizens from the types of slaughter we have seen through the use of certain types of high power firearms. It is impossible to leave those types of weapons, and how easily they can be obtained, out of any rational discussion of the problem because those are the weapons being used in these mass killings.

But, as far as I can tell, you're not even recognizing the problem, or acknowledging it, and you certainly aren't discussing it. Other than promoting your own self-interest, and your own rather limited views of the 2nd Amendment, you're not saying much of anything.

And you seem to view other gun owners or gun enthusiasts as some kind of mindless mob who will irrationally defeat any politician who dare utter anything to do with gun control, and I think you are sadly mistaken--even most members of the NRA think the problem must be addressed. Most responsible gun owners don't want to see guns used for the killing of innocent people and they do favor instituting some sensible controls, but you're obviously not among that group.

3 Replies

@H2O MAN,

H2O MAN wrote:

I carry all sorts of useful items in my vehicles.
These items are with me so I can help myself and others out of a jam.

True story:

A dead pine tree was blown down by the wind and it blocked the road.
Two cars were on the other side when I arrived and I could see the driver of the first car was on his cell.
I jumped out and started moving the tree out of the way, the second guy got out and helped.
The guy on the cell emerged from his car picked up a twig and informed both of us that he had called the city for help.
What an asshole!

What kind of self reliant American is going to call someone to help them when they can easily help themselves and others without government intervention?

The cell phone guy has forgotten what it means to be self reliant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Motto

Scroll down an inch or so, and see how scouts around the world have the motto of, "Be Prepared" in one language or another. Young scouts grew up to be better citizens, in my opinion. Also, an enemy never attacked our shores, even though as a youth I had to periodically hide under my desk, or in the hallway, due to a drill for possible A-bomb attack, likely because the U.S.A. was prepared. God bless General Curtis LeMay.

1 Reply

@H2O MAN,

H2O you know it does not cost all that must to have materials on hand to deal with an emergency at least until the emergencies services can show up.

Most of the time this materials of mine had ended up benefiting such people as Firefly and ehbeth that do not consider it wise for them to carry such supplies.

Hell after a hurricane I became a small local power company for those neighbors that did not have any way to deal with the power company not providing electric after a major storm for a week or so.

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@firefly,

Irrational laws and actions that does not increase the security of children or anyone else for that matter is not helpful such as a ban of one type of weapon that is no more deadly then other types.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Safety equipments I normally carry around with me had tend to benefit others more then me.

I can now picture you with an oversized salt shaker and a 50 gallon barrel of liquid transfat. You walking around your local restaurant district voluntarily shaking salt and pouring a cup of transfats onto everyone's meals as you wail out, "Dang malicious government's trying to take salt and transfats from your diet. I'm here to save you all from the monstrous evils of big government intervention."

And if someone protests they don't want that added onto their food, you scream back how you're here to save everyone from the tyranny of healthmongers!

2 Replies

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

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