64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:16 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Uhhh disarming cops is dumber than arming everyone


If these guns with 10 round magazines are good enough for self defense, then they are good enough for police work.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Can't you post anything without irrational hyperbole?


I always post without irrational hyperbole. All I do is tell the truth.

Your dislike of the truth will not prevent me from telling the truth.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:17 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I agree. I'll wait until after Friday's press conf to respond further.

Obama is no better...him going back to the "we need to do WHAT EVER! it takes to keep kids SAFE!!!!" line that I have heard about a billion times in my life. Speaking certain words in a certain order are often pro forma in america when leading the idiots. Practicality or even a connection to reality is certainly not a requirement anymore.
cicerone imposter
 
  -3  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hey, hawk, we all know that you have all the solutions already panned out and ready for legislation. You dumb ****!
firefly
 
  2  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:22 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Yep. Barack Obama hates the US Constitution with a passion.


Quote:
December 18, 2012
Supreme Court Gun Ruling Doesn’t Block Proposed Controls
By ADAM LIPTAK

WASHINGTON — Despite the sweeping language of a 2008 Supreme Court decision that struck down parts of the District of Columbia’s strict gun-control law, the decision appears perfectly consistent with many of the policy options being discussed after the shootings in Newtown, Conn.

Legal experts say the decision in the case, District of Columbia v. Heller, has been of mainly symbolic importance so far. There have been more than 500 challenges to gun laws and gun prosecutions since Heller was decided, and vanishingly few of them have succeeded.

The courts have upheld federal laws banning gun ownership by people convicted of felonies and some misdemeanors, by illegal immigrants and by drug addicts. They have upheld laws making it illegal to carry guns near schools or in post offices. They have upheld laws concerning unregistered weapons. And they have upheld laws banning machine guns and sawed-off shotguns.

Nor does Heller impose any major hurdles to many of the most common legislative proposals in the wake of the Newtown shootings, said Adam Winkler, a law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, and the author of “Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America.” Among the responses that Heller allows, he said, are better background checks, enhanced mental health reporting and a ban on high-capacity ammunition clips.

There is one major possible exception to the trend, and it is quite fresh. Last week, a divided three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, in Chicago, struck down an Illinois law that banned carrying loaded guns in public. Judge Richard A. Posner, writing for the majority, said the ruling was required by the Heller decision.

The Heller case, decided by a 5-to-4 vote, struck down a ban on handguns kept in the home for self-defense, saying it violated the Second Amendment.

After the shootings on Friday in Newtown, which killed 20 children and 7 adults before the gunman took his own life, policy makers — mostly Democrats — have called for tougher gun laws. Of the 12 deadliest mass shootings in American history, six have occurred since 2007.

The proposed measures include bans on some kinds of weapons and ammunition magazines, more sharing of information among government agencies, and an expansion of the settings in which background checks are required. In California, Democratic lawmakers are seeking to regulate ammunition sales more tightly.

The main obstacle to the passage of such measures is likely to be politics, not constitutional law, scholars say.

“We are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this country,” Justice Antonin Scalia wrote for the majority in the Heller decision. “But,” he added, “the enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.”

Still, the decision also contained a long list of laws and regulations that would, the court said, be unaffected. Among them were “laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools.”

“Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill,” Justice Scalia wrote. Government buildings in general could still ban guns. And the court said it had no quarrel with “laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

Justice Scalia added that laws banning “dangerous and unusual weapons” are “another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms.” He gave an example: “M-16 rifles and the like.”

When the case was argued in 2008, Justice Scalia suggested that other kinds of weapons and ammunition could be regulated. “I don’t know that a lot of people have machine guns or armor-piercing bullets,” he said. “I think that’s quite unusual.”


Jonathan E. Lowy, director of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence’s Legal Action Project, said the Heller decision thus did very little to restrict possible Congressional responses to the Newtown shootings.

The Supreme Court has not yet ruled on an issue left open in Heller: whether the Second Amendment forbids blanket bans on having guns for self-defense outside the home. Last week, the Seventh Circuit said it did.

The two central words in the phrase “to keep and bear” have different meanings, Judge Posner wrote, and the second one “is unlikely to refer to the home.”

“A Chicagoan,” he wrote, “is a good deal more likely to be attacked on a sidewalk in a rough neighborhood than in his apartment on the 35th floor of the Park Tower.”

Judge Posner reviewed the empirical literature about the practical consequences for crime and safety of bans on carrying guns in public, and he found it inconclusive. Justice Stephen G. Breyer came to a similar conclusion about gun-control laws generally in his dissent in Heller.

“Anyway,” Judge Posner wrote, “the Supreme Court made clear in Heller that it wasn’t going to make the right to bear arms depend on casualty counts.”

A ban short of a blanket prohibition might be permissible, he added, and the court gave the Illinois Legislature 180 days to enact a new law. One suggestion: it could prohibit guns “merely in particular places, such as public schools.”

The decision is in tension with recent ones from federal appeals courts in New York and Virginia, which is often a sign that an issue is heading to the Supreme Court.

For now, though, there is something like consensus that the court’s existing decisions will not stand in the way of most legislative responses to the recent shootings.

In a speech to the Brady Center in October, former Justice John Paul Stevens, who dissented in Heller and retired in 2010, said the decision was wrong but limited.

“Even as generously construed in Heller,” he said, “the Second Amendment provides no obstacle to regulations prohibiting the ownership or use of the sorts of automatic weapons used in the tragic multiple killings in Virginia, Colorado and Arizona in recent years. The failure of Congress to take any action to minimize the risk of similar tragedies in the future cannot be blamed on the court’s decision in Heller.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/us/gun-plans-dont-conflict-with-justices-08-ruling.html?hp&_r=0


How about Justice Scalia, and former Justice John Paul Stevens, do you think they hate the U.S. Constitution too, oralloy? They say you don't have a Constitutional right to have unfettered access to any and all types of firearms you might want to acquire and possess.

spendius
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:22 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Uhhh disarming cops is dumber than arming everyone


Apart from special units, which undergo rigorous training, our cops are unarmed and most of us are very grateful for it. The cops are also in the main.

I was involved in recruiting and training policemen for 7 years and the subject never came up.

Quote:
According to the National Memorial Day organisation, more than 4,000 police officers have been killed in the line of duty since 1792, when the first salaried constables went on duty.


Mostly in road accidents.

What's the figure for the US?
spendius
 
  0  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:24 pm
@oralloy,
Something you said earlier Oralloy suggested you are female.

Is that correct?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Hey, hawk, we all know that you have all the solutions already panned out and ready for legislation. You dumb ****!

Your assumption that the law is the solution goes to show that you are a garden variety idiot american. We have become very simple minded and stupid folks.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
farmerman wrote:
Uhhh disarming cops is dumber than arming everyone


Who said anything about disarming cops? I merely want their assualt weapons taken away. They have no use for them, no more than any citizen does. The number one thing assault weapons in the hands of cops lead to is dead citizens.

Cycloptichorn


Let's separate assault weapons from high capacity magazines. An assault weapon is just a gun with harmless cosmetic features like a pistol grip. It doesn't make the weapon any deadlier.

Also, Rational Basis Review will bar the government from banning cosmetic features like pistol grips. (And the question might well be decided on a stricter degree of scrutiny.)

The high capacity magazines are a different issue. That question would fall under Strict Scrutiny since running out of ammo so directly impacts self defense, but unlike things like pistol grips, the government will actually be able to claim they have a legitimate reason for limiting them.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawk, It's amazing how ignorant you are about many things. Since many Americans are now concerned about our children's safety, you believe we are all "idiot Americans" who will find solutions in our laws.

Yup! You have all the answers.
RexRed
 
  3  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:41 pm
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/61870_529417793735870_1979219469_n.jpg

White House Gun Control Petition Becomes Site's Most Popular Ever
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/white-house-gun-control_n_2317189.html

Gun proliferation also steps on another right, a society's right to feel safe. Once guns become too saturated like a mega sub culture the general populous has a right to regulate, limit and even disarm this sub culture if it cannot self monitor its proliferation of weapons meant for self defense not terror... RR
oralloy
 
  -3  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:44 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Yep. Barack Obama hates the US Constitution with a passion.


How about Justice Scalia, and former Justice John Paul Stevens, do you think they hate the U.S. Constitution too, oralloy?


Scalia, no.

Stevens, yes. He's a nasty little bugger.



firefly wrote:
They say you don't have a Constitutional right to have unfettered access to any and all types of firearms you might want to acquire and possess.


So?

That does not change the reality that bans on harmless cosmetic features like pistol grips and flash suppressors do not pass muster with Rational Basis Review (to say nothing of stricter standards of scrutiny).
oralloy
 
  -3  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:49 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Something you said earlier Oralloy suggested you are female.


Really???



spendius wrote:
Is that correct?


Nope. Male all my life.

Still got long hair from my youth as a heavy metal fan, but very much a male.

(Not sure why you got two downvotes for this. Seems a reasonable question, and asked politely.)
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:52 pm
@oralloy,
firefly wrote:
How about Justice Scalia, and former Justice John Paul Stevens, do you think they hate the U.S. Constitution too, oralloy?

They say you don't have a Constitutional right to have unfettered access to any and all types of firearms you might want to acquire and possess.

oralloy replied:
So?

That means you've been wrong in claiming that you do have such a Constitutional right. You do not have the "freedom" in that regard that you've been constantly claiming you do have.

It's time for a reality check on your part, oralloy.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 04:54 pm
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:
Gun proliferation also steps on another right, a society's right to feel safe.


No such right.



RexRed wrote:
Once guns become too saturated like a mega sub culture the general populous has a right to regulate, limit and even disarm this sub culture if it cannot self monitor its proliferation of weapons meant for self defense not terror... RR


Constitution says otherwise. Note the Second Amendment.

Some regulations are certainly allowed, but only within limits.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 05:00 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
That means you've been wrong in claiming that you do have such a Constitutional right. You do not have the "freedom" in that regard that you've been constantly claiming you do have.


You are confused. I've never said anything about an "unfettered right".

Any denial that I have an unfettered right does not conflict in any way with anything that I've said.

It certainly does not alter the reality that a ban on harmless cosmetic features like pistol grips and flash suppressors does not pass muster with Rational Basis Review (to say nothing of stronger standards of review).



firefly wrote:
It's time for a reality check on your part, oralloy.


Me and reality get along quite well, thank you.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 05:02 pm
@oralloy,
“Like most rights,” Justice Scalia said, “the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.”

So where's all this "freedom" you keep claiming you have?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 05:08 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
So where's all this "freedom" you keep claiming you have?


In the Second Amendment.
firefly
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 05:09 pm
@oralloy,
Not according to Justice Scalia.
Quote:
Justice Scalia added that laws banning “dangerous and unusual weapons” are “another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms.” He gave an example: “M-16 rifles and the like.”

When the case was argued in 2008, Justice Scalia suggested that other kinds of weapons and ammunition could be regulated.


Another assault weapon ban, or a ban on high capacity clips, would be consistent with that statement.
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Tue 18 Dec, 2012 05:09 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
“Like most rights,” Justice Scalia said, “the right secured by the Length Amendment is not unlimited.”

So where's all this "PENIS" you keep claiming you have?


Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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