Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

The words "right", "bear" and "arms" have meanings today which the delegates did not know and could not know.

I disagree. The meaning is much the same today.

spendius wrote:

You are wrapping yourself in the Constitution Bill for no other reason than that it is your last hope to save your ultimately un-saveable position. A reading of inscriptions on tombstones.

You really don't understand Americans.

It is better that we die than give up our freedom or our Constitution.

spendius wrote:

Develop the taser to its obvious limit.

I fully support adding non-lethal means to the arsenal of everyday Americans.

However, that non-lethal means must ultimately be backed up with devastating firepower, in case it fails to derail an attack.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

It has nothing to do with this thread, but I'd always thought (and learned) that US Constitution cannot be changed and thus the amendments were Amendments to the Constitution.

It is a hard task to make any changes in the constitution that can not be done unless there is a large scale conviction of the need by a very large percent of the American public by way of congress and the states.

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http://www.a-human-right.com/difference_s.jpg

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

It is a hard task to make any changes in the constitution that can not be done unless there is a large scale conviction of the need by a very large percent of the American public by way of congress and the states.

Well, thanks.
But I really thought that the US-Constitution hasn't been changed because it can't be changed - that's why the Constitution has been amended when the government and the people recognized a widespread problem or because of a movement for change.
My bad.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Surely if a person attending a gun show went on a rant saying that he wanted a weapon that he could use to shoot as many people as possible in the shortest time possible...and indicated that he intended to do his shooting in a public mall...

...even you would advise that it would not be prudent to sell that person a gun.

Sorry that would be a criminal/terrorist threat and the person would be arrested at the gun show so no need to have a panel to take his guns rights as any one convicted of a felony or facing a felony does not have that right.

But that have nothing to do with your wonderful idea of taking away gun rights because you do not care how someone express his or herself in public or their opinions or how they related to others.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Well, thanks.
But I really thought that the US-Constitution hasn't been changed because it can't be changed - that's why the Constitution has been amended when the government and the people recognized a widespread problem or because of a movement for change.
My bad.

You can look up the details by way of google and the internet but it take a super majority of the congress and then a super majority of the states and the constitution had been change/added to many times and that included a few times in my own life time.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, thanks.
But I really thought that the US-Constitution hasn't been changed because it can't be changed - that's why the Constitution has been amended when the government and the people recognized a widespread problem or because of a movement for change.
My bad.

You can look up the details by way of google and the internet but it take a super majority of the congress and then a super majority of the states and the constitution had been change/added to many times and that included a few times in my own life time.

I think you guys are misunderstanding each other.

I think Walter is talking about the amendments being listed after the Constitution, with the original text of the Constitution being unedited. Meaning that, even if an amendment alters how the Constitution works, one can still look at the Constitution and read the original text.

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Amendment I
Freedoms, Petitions, Assembly

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
Right to bear arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
Quartering of soldiers

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
Search and arrest

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
Rights in criminal cases

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
Right to a fair trial

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed; which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII
Rights in civil cases

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Bail, fines, punishment

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
Rights retained by the People

The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
States' rights

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

You really don't understand Americans.

Oh, I do think spendius understands how gun crazy we are.

http://www.boyculture.com/.a/6a00d8341c2ca253ef017d3edb38f5970c-550wi

1 Reply

Amendment II
Right to bear arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

America was never meant to be like the rest of the world...

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5227544)
Quote:
Surely if a person attending a gun show went on a rant saying that he wanted a weapon that he could use to shoot as many people as possible in the shortest time possible...and indicated that he intended to do his shooting in a public mall...

...even you would advise that it would not be prudent to sell that person a gun.

Sorry that would be a criminal/terrorist threat and the person would be arrested at the gun show so no need to have a panel to take his guns rights as any one convicted of a felony or facing a felony does not have that right.

But that have nothing to do with your wonderful idea of taking away gun rights because you do not care how someone express his or herself in public or their opinions or how they related to others.

Actually...it does.

So you are of the opinion that the right to own guns is not absolute.

Now I guess we have to draw the line.

In my opinion, if a person acts like an out-of-control, aggressive, angry, constantly hostile individual...that person should not be allowed to own guns.

You may be of a different opinion on that...and that is your right.

Just how hostile, angry, and aggressive would a person have to be before you think it might be inappropriate for that person to own weapons?

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@Frank Apisa,

In my opinion, if a person acts like an out-of-control, aggressive, angry,
constantly hostile individual...that person is a delusional liberal democrat.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

oralloy wrote:
MontereyJack wrote:
will be banned, as well as semi-automatic shotguns

In other words, they are trying to ban hunting weapons too.

Worth repeating.

Hey New York duck hunters. Guess whose hunting weapons just got banned?

I just heard an interview on NPR with a New York psychiatrist (Columbia University professor) who was horrified at the new New York state law.

Apparently the thing about "requiring psychiatrists to report anyone they suspect as dangerous so their guns can be seized" is likely to result in almost no mentally ill people ever seeking help (at least within New York state).

I gotta say, we hard core civil rights advocates are used to the Freedom Haters, and the way they propose stupid bans without much clue why it's a bad idea, then refuse to listen to reason.

But it looks like today, America's hunters and America's mental health community are both getting a taste of what deranged freaks the Freedom Haters really are.

Everyone remember to vote all the gun banners out of office in 2014! The ultimate solution to the Freedom Haters is having all our politicians terrified of crossing the NRA!

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Everyone remember to vote all the gun banners out of office in 2014!
The ultimate solution to the Freedom Haters is having all our politicians terrified of crossing the NRA!

That's the plan!

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

It is better that we die than give up our freedom or our Constitution.

I am aware oralloy that a peaceable, law-abiding population of compassionate and caring people might not be able to maintain America's position in the world.

But a violent, testosterone laden, sea of conflicts of interest, disagreement, contradictions and confusion, however much it supports America's position in the world, which I will allow, will be responded to by other powerful nations.

And the Constitution is a document which is precisely written to reduce the dangers of responding opponents albeit on what looks to us now a smaller scale but wouldn't have done to the participants. The antagonisms of the 13 states were their whole world.

The United Nations, which I presume you hate, is a Constitutional Convention on a world scale. The convention working on a United States of Europe is in permanent session and has been since the late 1950s and with no end in sight. It has so many delegates that even the sod-busters are having an input.

You are on the wrong side of history.

Your guns are a very serious economic liability. And with 300 million in circulation in that sea of confusion, which gets more choppy by the day, they obviously make a strong case for there being a lot more.

What of the cost, medically, of the mass anxiety of such a situation. What of the engineering in the manufacture of guns which could be put to better use. Dialysis machines for example.

What use are guns? Anxiety is a bad thing from a physiological point of view. And with armed guards in schools the toddlers are getting a full in the face dose of it.

Your side's posts are laden with anxiety stimulation.

Surely tasers can be made lethal if they are switched to MAX. And sold at swap meets for $20.

Why would a disarmed population lead to a Police State? I think these half-baked compromises I hear are in the air are much more likely to lead to that. Background checks being just another method of collecting data and only a fool would think they would not become corrupt. Ms Lanza would clear that hurdle with ease.

And identifying "at risk" citizens is pure Police State stuff. Then "the people" has lost all real meaning. It morphs into "our friends". Which soon becomes a Party.

Anyway--how many killings per 100,000 gun owners are there compared with killings by non-gun owners?

1 Reply

oralloy says:

Quote:

Everyone remember to vote all the gun banners out of office in 2014!
The ultimate solution to the Freedom Haters is having all our politicians terrified of crossing the NRA!

It's just too bad for you guys that the number of people who think you're nutballs far exceeds the number of people dim enough to follow your lead.

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@MontereyJack,

Yawn...MJ gets another one wrong... carry on

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@H2O MAN,

http://www.bobcesca.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/bulletsBedlam.jpg

1 Reply

@firefly,

Firefly I had a home in my town you need to visit to convict the homeowner and his family that guns should not be in hones.

Quote:

Miami-Dade Police are investigating after a home invasion ended in one of the suspects being shot and killed late Monday night.

The incident happened around 11 p.m. at a gated community in the 800 block of Northeast 209th Terrace, Miami-Dade Police spokesman Det. Alvaro Zabaleta said.

Zabaleta said police received a 911 call of a home invasion in progress involving two suspects.

Shots were fired and one of the suspects, identified only as a 22-year-old black male, was killed at the scene.

The second suspect fled in an unknown direction and it's unknown whether he is also injured, Zabaleta said.

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@firefly,

http://esciencenews.com/files/images/201104054657181.jpg

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Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

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