64
   

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

 
 
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 09:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
No, it's the NRA whose solution will lead to a police state--armed guards everywhere.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--sT2xPYD7T4/UOdabpc1XcI/AAAAAAAAkkI/BaeDCV0IJtI/s1600/guns.jpg
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 09:44 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

I read that nearly 50% of US households have guns.

Which means that nearly 50% don't.

Are there any comparative murder rates for these two large groups?





they've been posted several times in this thread
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 09:52 pm
Quote:
Poll: Most Americans support new gun-control measures after Newtown massacre

By David Nakamura and Jon Cohen, Updated: Monday, January 14, 5:00 PM

Most Americans support tough new measures to counter gun violence, including banning assault weapons and posting armed guards at every school, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

More than half of Americans — 52 percent in the poll — say the shooting at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., has made them more supportive of gun control; just 5 percent say they are now less apt to back tighter restrictions. Most also are at least somewhat worried about a mass shooting in their own community, with concern jumping to 65 percent among those with school-age children at home.

The findings, which also show broad bipartisan support for mandatory background checks to purchase firearms at gun shows, came as President Obama said Monday that he will lay out specific White House proposals on gun-control legislation and executive actions this week.

Obama has pledged to champion broad new reforms in the wake of the mass shooting that killed 26, including 20 children, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown last month. He is scheduled to receive a list of proposals Tuesday from Vice President Biden, who is leading a task force on gun violence.

But most congressional Republicans and some Democrats oppose restrictive new measures, such as an assault-weapons ban.

Administration aides have said that the president is likely to call for renewing the ban on the most powerful rifles, even in the face of heavy opposition from the National Rifle Association. In the poll, 58 percent of Americans support the ban, which expired in 2004 after 10 years; 39 percent oppose it.

“My starting point is not to worry about the politics but to focus on what makes sense and what works,” Obama said at a news conference Monday. “What should we be doing to make sure our children are safe and reduce incidents of gun violence? We can do it in a way that comports with the Second Amendment.”

The president declined to be specific when asked what recourse he would have if lawmakers rejected the ban, saying that “members of Congress must have a debate and examine their own conscience.”

A question of priorities

While the poll showed cross-party support for some potential policies, there was a sharp divide on others, and particularly over how much emphasis the administration and Congress should place on addressing gun issues.

Democrats and Republicans both see the economy as the clear top priority for federal action, but while most Democrats also rank gun control as a high priority, few Republicans or independents agree. Most Republicans say stricter gun laws should be lower on the list or not a priority at all.

New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg (I) on Monday called on Obama and Congress to enact strict new-gun control measures in the wake of Newtown. And Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley (D) unveiled plans for an assault-rifle ban and tougher gun licensing requirements in his state.

Recent polls have shown broadly positive sentiment for the NRA, but the new survey reveals a far more mixed verdict on its leadership. Some 36 percent of Americans express favorable views of the group’s leaders, while 44 percent say they have unfavorable impressions. A sizable share, 20 percent, say they have no opinion.

A plurality of all Americans, 38 percent, think the organization has “too much influence” over the country’s gun-control laws. Twenty-four percent see the NRA as having “too little” sway, while 30 percent say it has the right amount.

In the poll, 44 percent of Americans say there is at least one gun at home, and people in households with firearms are far less supportive of a variety of gun-control measures than are those in non-gun households. Some 45 percent of gun-owning households support a ban on assault weapons, and only 15 percent say the administration and Congress should make stricter laws a top priority.

Still, majorities in households with firearms support background checks at gun shows (86 percent); background checks for ammunition purchases (76 percent), an idea recently proposed by Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.); a new federal gun database (62 percent); and a ban on high-capacity ammunition magazines (55 percent).

Support for school guards

The NRA last month offered its own proposal to curb mass shootings: placing armed police or trained security guards at the nation’s 100,000 schools — an idea favored by 55 percent of the public, according to the Post-ABC poll. Those with children at home are more apt than those without to want armed guards at schools, but they are no more or less likely to support a range of other initiatives.

For most potential policies, support is far stronger among Democrats than among Republicans; the exception is placing armed guards in schools, an idea favored by more Republicans.

The poll shows broad support among Americans for establishing a database to track all gun sales (71 percent) and for a ban on high-capacity ammunition magazines (65 percent). Fifty-one percent support a ban on semiautomatic handguns.

Some of the policy disagreements reflect diverse opinions about the causes of gun violence. Overall, 56 percent say inadequate treatment of mental illness contributes “a great deal” to gun violence, and the same percentage say insufficient background checks are a major cause. Next on the list is a lack of individual responsibility among firearm owners. Fewer — 38 percent — see violent movies, television programs and video games as playing a big role, although more Republicans than Democrats say entertainment is a main contributor to gun violence.

In addition to partisanship and gun ownership, perception of the threat of mass shootings is related to support for new measures. Among those who are very worried about a mass shooting where they live, 65 percent back a nationwide ban on semiautomatic handguns. In a mirror image, 65 percent of those who are not concerned oppose such a ban.

The poll was conducted Jan. 10 to 13 among a random national sample of 1,001 adults. The margin of sampling error for the full sample is plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

Cohen is the director of polling for Capital Insight, the independent polling group of Washington Post Media. Capital Insight’s Peyton Craighill and Scott Clement contributed to this report.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-says-hell-offer-plans-to-stem-gun-violence-this-week/2013/01/14/b7ad8ea8-5e6c-11e2-90a0-73c8343c6d61_story.html
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 09:55 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Judging by all the people who now feel a need to carry a gun all the time, and who are urging others to do the same, we have an awful lot of people living in fear.


I also must live in fear of fire as I always carry a fire extinguisher in my car and I must live in fear of not having power at home as I have two generators and I even been thinking that at my wife and my age a home defibrillator might be worth it cost so I must live in fear of a heart attack.

If you Firefly wish to live in a fantasy world where their is no bad people with or without guns, no fires, no power blackouts and no heart attacks be my guest.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 10:05 pm
@firefly,
f
Quote:
it peaked in 1929, that means it declined after that.

You must be even more deficient in logic than I had assumed..


In what way as you are the one who wish to tear up the society because of the risk to the children not me that you are claiming is so must greater then in your childhood.

I just suggested a few means that this risk that is real but small could be reduce and how and why the approaches that people like you wish to embrace are pointless with the possible minor benefit of smaller gun magazines.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 10:06 pm
Waitress, what's this fly doing in my soup?
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 10:30 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

Waitress, what's this fly doing in my soup?

"Looking for a gun to shot you with"
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 10:42 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
In what way as you are the one who wish to tear up the society because of the risk to the children not me...


Now I wish to "tear up society"? Laughing My goodness, talk of gun control has really unhinged you. Laughing

Look at the results of the new poll I just posted--most Americans now want new gun control measures--and that includes gun owners. So your views don't seem to reflect those of most gun owners.

58% of the people polled supported a ban on assault rifles and 51% supported a ban on semiautomatic handguns.

Our society is already being torn up--by bullet holes, far too many bullet holes in people's bodies. And people are finally coming together and saying they want to see changes made.

You don't, or can't, even acknowledge the problem we have in this country with gun violence. That's why you think even more guns in circulation, and being carried, would make things better. And that's as logical as your belief that increasing the legal blood alcohol level above .08 would improve the drunk driving problem.

http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/moreguns.jpg
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2013 11:08 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
talk of gun control has really unhinged you


I like that 'unhinged' means you've lost your mind.

Nominative determinism.

Hinge.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 12:03 am
Well, now we are starting to get somewhere.
THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE HAS PASSED STRINGENT NEW GUN CONTROL LAWS, SUPPORTED BY BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS IN THEIR LEGISLATURE. THE NY ASSEMBLY, WHICH IS HEAVILY DEMOCRATIC, HAS EXPRESSED SUPPORT FOR SUCH PROVISIONS AND VOTES TOMORROW ON THE BILL. THEIR APPROVAL SEEMS CERTAIN.
Assault-style weapons with ONE functional feature (which oralloy mistakenly refers to as "cosmetic features") will be banned, as well as semi-automatic shotguns and some semi-auto handguns. Magazines will be reduced to a capacity of 7 from 10. Background checks will be strengthened and broadened and unreported sales will be seriously punished when brought to light. Mental health checks will be strengthened. Bulk purchases of ammunition will be scrutinized as well.

I'd say these regulations clearly are constitutional under Scalia's majority decision in Heller, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they gain not simply majority support but 6-3 support when they come before the Supreme Court.The NRA is a toothless tiger in New York.

About damned time.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/nyregion/new-york-legislators-hope-for-speedy-vote-on-gun-laws.html?pagewanted=1&hp


McTag
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 01:38 am
@MontereyJack,

Good stuff.

In Britain, people who have a licence to own firearms have to keep them in a locked gun cabinet, liable for inspection.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 05:10 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
they've been posted several times in this thread


Not quite the sort of stats I had in mind Beth.

But thanks for helping H2O off the hook. He was avoiding the question, as you can easily see, because he understood it and knew where it was going. Now he will think he doesn't need to bother after your effort. Background checks are not done on states.

Okay H2O--I'll begin again.

I read that nearly 50% of US households have guns.

Which means that nearly 50% don't.

Are there any comparative murder rates for these two large groups?

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "murder".

How much more likely is a gun owner to cause a gun death or injury than a person who does not own a gun?
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 05:21 am
@spendius,

Quote:
How much more likely is a gun owner to cause a gun death or injury than a person who does not own a gun?


No doubt H2O will answer this himself. Very near 100% I'd say.

And it's not just the "owner", as we know.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 06:37 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
MontereyJack wrote:
re oralloy:
That is the most complete and utter bullshit in two lines I think I've ever seen. You''re the childish one.


No, I was wrong. It took you three lines.


Don't be silly. The term "Freedom Hater" is completely accurate. It isn't possible to pack more truth into just two words.

That it associates gun control advocates with their 9/11 terrorist buddies only makes the term even more accurate.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 06:45 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
You maintain, with no proof, that they have been refuted. Let's see some creditable refutation, not bombast.



Well, there's this:

Quote:
Excerpted from Dr. Gary Kleck's, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control (p 285, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York 1997):

The full body of relevant studies indicates that firearm availability measures are significantly and positively associated with rates of firearm suicide, but have no significant association with rates of total suicide.

Of thirteen studies, nine found a significant association between gun levels and rates of gun suicide, but only one found a significant association between gun levels and rates of total suicides. The only study to find a measure of "gun availability" significantly associated with total suicide...used a measure of gun availability known to be invalid.

This pattern of results supports the view that where guns are less common, there is complete substitution of other methods of suicide, and that, while gun levels influence the choice of suicide method, they have no effect on the number of people who die in suicides.


http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsuic.html



This one also debunks some of the quack "medical studies":

http://www.guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 06:46 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
And this is a good summary of how people commit suicide, whether or not they plan it in advance, how they change their minds after they start, and why guns don't permit much change of mind.
Again, based on actual case studies, not guesswork or ideological preconception.
http://trib.com/special-section/suicide/means-matter-gun-lethality-affects-suicide-rates/article_7d50a613-2d9a-5521-b308-a43622a84ac2.html


More quack studies.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 06:48 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Anyone who has any question about gun registration only needs to look at this case here to see why it should never be complied with.


So you are all for making sure that gun owners are criminals. Good for you.

Now tell us how you are all for enforcing the gun laws we have just to show us how you have no common sense at all.


No one is going to be fooled into registering their guns no matter what you say.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 06:53 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
No. The fact that gun availability has very little impact on homicide rates is highly significant. It is anything but a red herring.


But in the US there is a rather large correlation between suicides and gun ownership when you compare the states.

Largest suicide rate - Alaska
most suicides committed with guns - Alaska
2nd and 3rd states with they highest gun suicides Wyoming and Montana
2nd and 3rd states with highest suicide rates? Wyoming and Montana

Lowest suicide rate?
New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts
Lowest gun suicide rates?
New Jersey, Massachusetts, Hawaii.
New York is fifth lowest.

Why do states with the lowest suicide rates have more restrictions on gun access?

California - which has some rather high bridges - 6th lowest suicide rate
10th lowest gun suicide rate.

The only way you can support your claim is to bring up different cultures that view suicide differently. Japan and North Korea see it as an honorable way out while in the US it is viewed as mentally ill.


Yes. "Differing cultures" is a far more important factor than "whether guns are available".
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 07:09 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Comparisons between nations shows quite clearly that gun availability does not correlate to suicide rates.


Your comparison fails to adjust for cultural factors.


But it does a good job of showing that those cultural factors are a far more important factor in suicides than mere gun availability.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2013 07:17 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5226966)
Quote:
thousands are severely wounded. Some, Bill, are well trained and are careful...just as some well trained, careful drivers get into automobile accidents.


Sorry but you would need to work at having an accident by somehow sitting aside decades of the proper ways of handling firearms that had become a part of you.

Modern firearms when handle correctly are as safe as anything yet produce by mankind.


Your blindness and intransigence on this particular is beyond comprehension, Bill. But my conversation with you about the slavery issue persuades me that you simply will not acknowledge when you are wrong.

That is something you have to live with.

In any case, for anyone willing to keep an open mind, it must be obvious that a significant number of gun owners have "accidents" that allow over 600 CHILDREN to be killed each year and to have over 15,000 serious shooting injuries each year.

Dick Cheney, a vice president of the United States, was a knowledgeable, responsible, trained gun owner who accidentally shot someone.
 

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