Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

@BillRM,

You still haven't answered a question I asked you before?

Do you have any interest in reducing the death toll, in this country, that is caused by firearms?

Your morbid fascination with discussing the various ways of killing people, including children, beside the use of guns, is rather sick.

Meanwhile, we have a significant problem with gun violence in this country, gun violence that takes a daily toll, and gun violence that threatens the public health and safety of the general population, that you, rather ineptly, keep trying to avoid or deny.

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@firefly,

Quote:

Nothing like welcoming in the New Year with another mass shooting.

liar, this is a garden variety bar homicide, not a shoot em up like Newton.

you have no scruples at all do you....

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

this is a garden variety bar homicide

'garden variety' meaning commonplace, Hawk?

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@FOUND SOUL,

I finally figured out how to read the scrunched chart Bill offered.

Total
Knives : Total of attacks 16,127 Resulting homicides ~~391

Firearms: Total of attacks 5,583 Resulting homicides ~~777

It would appear from this data that about three times as many knife attacks result in less than half as many deaths.
It's obvious that if you find yourself in knife fight, you should thank your lucky stars.

Somebody do the actual ratios.

Joe(just for the fun of it)Nation

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

liar, this is a garden variety bar homicide

You're so used to gun violence in this country, and so accepting of it, you consider a shooting, in which 4 victims were hit, and 2 died, "garden variety". That's a sad commentary on our country.

Sorry that wasn't a big enough "shoot em up" to concern you.

It is a good example of how a gun escalates an argument, or even a fight, into a deadly episode. And having an armed guard on the premises didn't really help, he was also wounded.

And that sort of thing goes on all the time in this country. It's part of the senseless carnage caused by the number of people carrying guns, who reach for them impulsively, and often when intoxicated. It happens in bars and restaurants, at house parties, and in the parking lots of sports stadiums. And it all endangers innocent bystanders--it all endangers the general public.

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@firefly,

You are correct, there is a peculiar avoidance of actually looking at how deeply the gun culture has infected America. There is a refusal to accept any responsibility beyond one's own front porch by gun owners for the carnage that their myopic and selfish attitudes cause. Cause is the right word. The thousands of unnecessary deaths in America from gunshots are their fault.

Joe(we must keep pounding away. Our lives depend upon it.)Nation

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@Joe Nation,

Quote:

there is a peculiar avoidance

Gee, you think so, Joe. Are there any Americans who do this besides the gun folk?

Quote:

The thousands of unnecessary deaths in America from gunshots are their fault.

Whose fault is it for the millions of unnecessary deaths around the world from American war crimes and terrorism?

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JTT
Despite my opinion of you, I will reply thus: you ain't telling me nothing about the USA that I haven't been saying for the past fifty years. If your methods weren't so repugnant, you might have found a friend in me.
Too bad, asshole.
Joe(I never talk like this, never.)Nation

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@JTT,

JTT Do you think that we may talk about our passions so much that people get annoyed with us at time?
Most people do not seem to care, They are just living their lives and are not able to feel what we feel or they react differently to it

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@Joe Nation,

I know well of the commission of horrible crimes and unrelenting terrorism at the hands of the US government but I'm not going to say anything because you have made me angry. [Joe stomps off]

"You never talk like this" but you're willing to stand silent about these horrid actions.

That's awfully adult of you, Joe. Convenient excuse too.

Joe(I never talk like this, never. I think I feel the vapors coming on)Nation

You failed to answer my question, Joe.

Are there any Americans who do [avoid reality] this besides the gun folk?

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@reasoning logic,

Joe's just terribly pissed that he got himself caught in this embarrassing hypocrisy, RL.

Quote:

Most people do not seem to care,

And that's a good reason to give them, these deniers of reality on a massive scale, a pass. Millions of people have died, tens of millions have been subjected to horrendous brutality. And these folk still have the temerity to open their mouths and whine about events that, put on a scale of relative importance, are miniscule.

These jokers, like Joe, can go on and on attacking others for their perceived shortcomings, but they don't want to have the same standards applied to themselves.

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@McTag,

McTag wrote:

Quote:
For hunting, you need an extra examination.

Oralloy definitely needs that, by a good psychiatrist.

Why are freedom haters so childish when they are prevented from violating people's civil rights?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
I only see a requirement that a reason be stated. What happens if someone states they want protection from burglars? Is the mere statement enough? Or do they need to convince some official to agree that there is some special danger?

As said, the (European and) Swiss legal definition of self defence is different to that you use. against burglars, police protection departments give you good and free advice ...

No, self defense is the same natural human right everywhere.

Regardless, the law does not require that the government has to like someone's stated reason. It just requires that the reason be stated.

So if anyone in Switzerland were to try to buy a gun on this chart, and say that their reason was "protecting my TV from burglars", there is no legal basis for denying their permit.

If not, I also notice that "gun collecting" is accepted as a valid reason for purchasing any gun on that chart.

If they are truly not allowed to say self defense, all they need to do is say it'll be part of their gun collection. Problem solved.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I don't know why you call it "probably normal" - we (and the Swiss) know such since centuries.

I did not familiarize myself with it enough to feel comfortable making a definitive statement. It looks like a standard hunting license that a government would require of hunters, and that is what it probably is. But when I don't know something for sure, I try to allow for the fact that I might be wrong.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Hunters buy their weapons without any other license than their hunting licence. It might well be that non-hunters can buy hunting weapons. But I think it to be difficult to explain, why you need a specialised hunting weapon if you're not a hunter.

I only saw a requirement that the Swiss state what the intended purpose of their gun would be. I did not see any requirement that they have to explain why they need anything.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

He's trying to make a silly case that keeps sinking the more he presents it.
He also tried it with Louiville Sluggers,and explosives.

Hardly silly. He's pointing out reality.

Gun availability has very little impact on homicide rates. If you remove the guns, nearly the same number of people are murdered, just using different weapons.

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@parados,

parados wrote:

It's luck? Your reality sure is different from everyone elses. I'll tell you what Bill. For a million dollars I'll let you stab me once with a knife and I'll shoot you once with an assault rifle. The one that dies loses the bet.

What if you both die at the same time?

I think you are underestimating the damage that can be caused by a bad knife wound, and overestimating the damage done by those little mouse rounds the military uses in their M-16s.

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@Joe Nation,

Joe Nation wrote:

You are correct, there is a peculiar avoidance of actually looking at how deeply the gun culture has infected America. There is a refusal to accept any responsibility beyond one's own front porch by gun owners for the carnage that their myopic and selfish attitudes cause.

No such myopia. No such selfishness. No such responsibility. And no such causation.

Joe Nation wrote:

Cause is the right word. The thousands of unnecessary deaths in America from gunshots are their fault.

Hardly. They are the fault of the people who committed the crimes.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

I only saw a requirement that the Swiss state what the intended purpose of their gun would be. I did not see any requirement that they have to explain why they need anything.

I can only read the formulars in German and French:

Quote:

And I only know what Swiss told me about it - from those, who fulfilled it as well as from a friend at the Federal Police.

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This is one topic I know I fail quite strangely on.

Knowing a lesser form of gun crime by my own hand, I know without doubt that I would never pull the trigger on currently unarmed people, even if provoked..
I see quite clearly though that people do not back down from a gun, in fact they purchase one in retaliation and shoot then, even the unarmed..

I could say that this makes me better than them, but I find in fact I would be lying somehow... They simply have no alternative but to panic and worry til action.

That same state of mind, appears to be the cause of these shootings, that is all I can say for certain.. So Guns are removed... I guess rightly so, despite being sensible with one, in the sense that innocent people or unarmed people are not targets to myself.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
I only saw a requirement that the Swiss state what the intended purpose of their gun would be. I did not see any requirement that they have to explain why they need anything.

I can only read the formulars in German and French:

Quote:
Quote:

Note that "gun collecting" is regarded as a valid reason for getting a gun.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

And I only know what Swiss told me about it - from those, who fulfilled it as well as from a friend at the Federal Police.

Have you asked them what the response would be if someone wrote down as a reason: "protecting my family from burglars" ?

1 Reply

Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

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