Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

@oralloy,

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Like the fact that gun availability has little impact on homicide rates

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The nation’s relatively high violent crime rate, partly driven by the much easier availability of guns here, helps explain the number of people in American prisons.

“The assault rate in New York and London is not that much different,” said Marc Mauer, the executive director of the Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group. “But if you look at the murder rate, particularly with firearms, it’s much higher.”

Despite the recent decline in the murder rate in the United States, it is still about four times that of many nations in Western Europe....
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I'm waiting for the empirical evidence to support your alleged "fact" that, "gun availability has little impact on homicide rates." I, and other posters, have already posted considerable statistical information in this thread that contradicts your alleged factual statement. How about you posting some links to support your statement of "fact".

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@parados,

parados wrote:

So your position is that banning pistol grips occurred even though they were not banned in all instances, is that correct?

That's not quite how I would put it, but it's close enough to be accurate, so yes.

Banning combinations of harmless cosmetic features is just as unconstitutional as banning a single harmless cosmetic feature.

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@firefly,

Quote:

The nation’s relatively high violent crime rate, partly driven by the much easier availability of guns here,

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html?pagewanted=all

Fiction.

Especially since our violent crime rate is so much lower than the violent crime rates in nations where guns are highly restricted.

firefly wrote:

I'm waiting for the empirical evidence to support your alleged "fact" that, "gun availability has little impact on homicide rates."

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsupp.html

In particular, note Switzerland, with a relatively low homicide rate despite lots of guns, and Taiwan, with a relatively high homicide rate despite almost no guns.

firefly wrote:

I, and other posters, have already posted considerable statistical information in this thread that contradicts your alleged factual statement.

Not really.

firefly wrote:

How about you posting some links to support your statement of "fact".

See above.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

In particular, note Switzerland, with a relatively low homicide rate despite lots of guns

I think I could live in a Swiss style gun control world. I used to spend lotsa time in Switzerland when I worked in the gas fields of Italy. I recall the Rekrutschule training that all (males) had to undergo in their lives as a way to assure that they would have a militia when and if needed.
Everybody was issued a Sig rifle and pistol AND (as I remember ) 50 ROUNDS OF AMMO EACH. ALSO these rounds were occasionaly inspected.
There is a sporting tradition in some areas of Switzerland where NON military guns are kept.
SO, controlling the AMMO is sort of a gun control.

1 Reply

@parados,

Quote:

People prefer to stick to what is readily available or they don't commit the crimes if they have to manufacture the materials.

Your down under people mass killers must be lazy bums as we have a history in the US a having more mass murders being done by explosives means then firearms.

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@FOUND SOUL,

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with fairness, he should not have had a gun, as they are banned. The other was a drifter and did not live in Australia, was not Australian.

Bet that there is no where in the world that with enough cash you could not picked up an illegal firearm within 24 hours of arriving including the UK.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

we have a history in the US a having more mass murders being done by explosives means then firearms.

where do you get this?

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@oralloy,

I love the idea of banning the 150 millions or so semi-auto in the US and if I through it was possible I would stock up on lever action rifles that are about as deadly or at least the stock of gun makers that are big into lever action rifles to say nothing of pump actions shotguns.

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@farmerman,

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where do you get this?

From a list of mass murders in the US over the last hundred years or so and I think I even posted the list and the link to the list on this thread.

Hell the largest death toll in a school mass killings by far was cause by a gentleman using dynamite in 1927.

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@farmerman,

Second note not only does rifles in the US killed far less by a factor of four or so then edge weapons such as knives but club objects such as baseball bats killed more people then rifles.

With rifles killing a few hundreds a year out of a population of 300 millions.

Information from the FBI website.

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@BillRM,

So this gives you some comfort???

I really question your stats on explosives v guns. I think you are reading something into this.
As far aswe know there are THOUSANDS of gun violence deaths annually. Hell, we had another 5 in Philly this last weekend alone.

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@BillRM,

So are you lifting out "Semi auto rifles" from the list of killings with guns of all kinds?
So, in your mind, a semi Sig rifle is statistically different than a Sig Semi pistol?

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Hell the largest death toll in a school mass killings by far was cause by a gentleman using dynamite in 1927

Apparently he killed 38 kids. Its a lot, but not by far, and its not a sign of a huge tally of deaths by xplosives.

BESIDES, dynamite and pyratol are now controlled explosives (we need a Federal license (FEL)) we need a buyers prmit, a nd a magazine permit.
The guy in Oklahoma City was trained in xplosives and acquired fusees, and accelerants so his mix of ANNM would even blow up. The industry lobbyists are still trying to keep taggants from being added to ag grade Ammonium Nitrate (The stuff McVeigh used) He didnt use explosive grade Nitrate cause he couldnt get it. So in order to make bomb making more difficult taggants are added all over the world except in the US. WHY? Industrt Lobbies control all common sense. If you BELIEVE that some realistic gun control or design, or other limitation of ownership CANT be done, youve been drinking the industry's KoolAid.(Even HELLER vDC has language in it that recognizes gun controls of some fashion)
Gun Contro, will come, just not in our generations. Itll take time but I have confidence that e, as a sociey, must grow up

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

While FBI statistics show that levels of violent crime in the United States, including murder, have steadily declined since 1991, homicides still claim about 15,000 lives a year. More than half of all murders in a given year are typically committed with guns...

a 2011 study in the Journal of Trauma compared the United States with similar nations and found that U.S. homicide rates were “6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, driven by firearm homicide rates that were 19.5 times higher. For 15-year olds to 24-year olds, firearm homicide rates in the United States were 42.7 times higher than in the other countries

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/criminal-justice/mass-murder-shooting-sprees-and-rampage-violence-research-roundup?utm_source=2012-12-18-campaign&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=JR-email

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A 2002 study published in the American Journal of Public Health, “Rates of Household Firearm Ownership and Homicide Across U.S. Regions and States, 1988-1997,” looked at the ratio of homes owning guns and the homicide rate in the given area.

The study’s findings include:
•In the six states with the highest rates of gun ownership, an average of 53% of households owned firearms; in the four states with the lowest rates of gun ownership, an average of 13% of households contained firearms.
•From 1988 to 1997, the high-gun states had more than 21,000 individuals who were homicide victims, compared with 7,300 in the low-gun states.
•People living in the high-gun states were 4.2 times more likely to die in a gun-related homicide than those in the low-gun states, and 1.6 times more likely to die in a non-gun-related homicide.
•After controlling for rates of poverty, urbanization, unemployment, per capita alcohol consumption, and violent crimes other than homicide, the association between rates of firearm ownership and homicide remained significant.

The researchers state that the study shows that “in areas with more firearms, people of all ages were more likely to be murdered, especially with handguns.”
http://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/criminal-justice/firearm-ownership-and-homicide-rates

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

So are you lifting out "Semi auto rifles" from the list of killings with guns of all kinds?
So, in your mind, a semi Sig rifle is statistically different than a Sig Semi pistol?

The FBI have all rifles in one grouping and all rifles killed less then baseballs bats type weapons including the so call assault rifles , handguns is another group and so are shotguns.

Handguns of all types are the murder weapon of choices in the US.

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@BillRM,

how bout street sweeping weapons? Are they removed from your selected "Data Base"

You realize that slicing and dicing assault rifles from baseball bats or even explosives is silly. When was the last "MAss bludgeoning with a Louisville Slugger" at a school full of 6 year old kids? Maybe youre thinking of Harp Seals.
Jeezus Bill, get back on some kind of track .

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Handguns of all types are the murder weapon of choices in the US.

So how can you continue to deny the association between guns and public health and safety?

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@BillRM,

And can you go to the hardware store and buy a stick of dynamite?

Look! Constitutional gun controls exist--the NRA's comments that the first amendment is to protect citizens from tour government is botch. You can't buy dynamite at WalMart, nor can you freely have a operational hand gernade, a STEN (or zip equivalent), a five inch howitzer (or even a 12 pound Napolean), a COBRA helicopter, a Sherman Tank, or a sawed off shotgun.

Granted these controls were enacted after a tragedy to prevent its re-occurrence (try buying a ton of ammonium nitrate and not be a farmer or in construction), but they have occurred as the result of some political demand. A demand that has become contemporary post Aurora and Newtown.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the right of citizens to own firearms (pistols, shotguns, rifles) . However, there has to be some reason and the fact that there are already 200 million firearms out there that makes this a particularly tough nut to crack..

I personally have seven modern firearms (1900+) and four black powder ones (rifles and a Remington 44). Granted none of these firearms are wanna be assault rifles, but I see Farmerman's proposition reasonable.

Account for bullets. Ammunition has a shelf life.

I have a rifle that is barely modern (1903) that is a great shooting rifle. I don't shoot it much anymore (once a year to clean, set sights, and renew expensive ammunition) but I keep it in good shape because I just might to have to shoot an runaway elephant (I live by a zoo). If the MIB's requested that I account for my ammunition purchase records, I can present my ammo box and shooting book and range targets.

And Straw Purchasers of firearms (and ammunition) should receive federal sentences akin to a major drug dealers in a SuperMax.

Rap

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

BESIDES, dynamite and pyratol are now controlled explosives (we need a Federal license (FEL)) we need a buyers prmit, a

My my and such explosives are alway under top security in the tens of thousands of construction sites and mining sites around the country where it is used?

A bolt cutter is not enough to have a good chance of stealing such material?

Of course mass murderers to be, would never break the law to get the materials they needed to do the deed.

Quote:

http://www.gjsentinel.com/breaking/articles/garco-sheriff-feds-investigating-stolen-dynamite

By Paul Shockley
Wednesday, November 17, 2010

Garfield County and federal authorities are investigating the reported theft of at least 100 pieces of dynamite from private property near Silt.

The theft, which was disclosed this morning through a news release from Garfield County Crime Stoppers, reportedly happened “during the middle of November” and involved over 100 “sticks or cartridges” of dynamite, in additional to a partial spool of detonation cord. Authorities didn’t specify where the theft occurred.

FBI, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and the Garfield County Sheriff’s Department are investigating.

State and federal authorities are offering a $6,000 reward for information leading to an arrest and the recovery of the material.

Anyone with information is asked to call (970) 945-0101, or report it online,

Quote:

http://www.timesnews.net/article/9034761

Quote:
http://www.lafollettepress.com/content/fbi-investigating-dynamite-area-home

FBI investigating dynamite at area home
Last night the department responded to a domestic disturbance call at the home. Once Osborne was arrested his wife alerted the police to the dynamite.

After a quick investigation the decision was made to call in the Knox County Bomb Squad, said Goins.

Authorities found nearly 600 pounds of dynamite, blasting caps and gunpowder. It is believed Osborne stole the items from a local coal mining company.

He remains in the county jail.

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Another major school shooting today ... Newtown, Conn

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