Is that stuff that JTT says about America true?

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

As with so many things that have gone wrong the roots reach back to our failed education system.

I agree with you that there is much in the education system that fails, Hawk, but this is hardly a new thing. The education systems of the past were much much worse.

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@JTT,

Quote:

I agree with you that there is much in the education system that fails, Hawk, but this is hardly a new thing. The education systems of the past were much much worse

Sometimes, but then back in the olden days a good education was not as important to so many as it is now. Once we did just fine with a few percent of the men getting a good education. Now we need a lot more than that. The system worked pretty well for a good spell up until the student revolts at the university @1968, when almost all faculties capitulated. For the university it has been a downward spiral ever since. I am not clear when the public schools went to hell, but by the time I graduated in 1980 they were already in sorry shape, with the faculties demoralized by reforms, budget cuts and by both parents and students increasing lack of respect for rules and for the faculty. It was around this time that school faculties were beginning to see that the school boards could not be counted on the back them up, that those in the schools who were trying to maintain standards were thus under assault from all sides with no allies.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
since no one is going to make me an ingrate for being in a country where my family obtained a safe haven from the dementia that took place in Europe two times in the first half of the 20th century

What a ludicrous idea, Foofie, but then you are known for your foofieisms.

I wonder just what twisted logic it is that a person would think of themself as an ingrate for stopping their leaders from committing war crimes/terrorist acts.

I wonder just what twisted logic it is that a person would think of themself as an ingrate for demanding that their leaders follow the rule of law.

As long as you are made safe, all others be damned, eh Foofie? Now that's what I call a real human being.

Do you prefer to torture kittens or puppies?

You are bullying again with your ad-hominems (see last sentence of yours above).

However, I have to believe that you are very ignorant of the Jewish perspective on the U.S., since you and your family do not know how anti-Semitic Europe was from first hand experience. And, let's not forget that the American anti-Semite is only too quick to promulgate the canard that "Jews take over." So, since I do not want to change the status quo (aka, not take over) you have the Gentile audicity to put me in the same moral basket as two millienia of anti-Semitic Gentiles. Sorry, Your Lordship, I do not qualify to rectify anything that could be wrong with this country, since in Europe my family were obviously second class citizens of sort, and now I am not going to be your sycophant, since you apparently are ready to right any wrongs by "taking over."

By the way, has it entered your consciousness that the recent drone strike in Yemen was against a U.S. citizen that was proselytizing anti-American rhetoric. Now, I am not implying that any drones are observing you; however, after 9/11 the concept of anti-American activities might be changing in the concept of free speech. Perhaps, you should ruminate on that a bit?

If you need to rail against other A2K posters, that is none of my business; however, your lack of empathy for my specific American Jewish viewpoint is just so Goyisha. You are fortunate though not to be Jewish, since if you were you might be raising the level of anti-Semitism in the country, in my opinion.

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@Foofie,

You are feeling sorry for yourself with no good reason to do so. You sit unscathed by the actions of brutal dictators, yet you wish that on others, or often mention that you could care less that it happens to them.

As sad a human as you are, Foofie, if the day comes when they are coming to get you, I'll be there for you.

Don't you find it odd that there are none of the "hey, that's not what the thread is about" crowd around to harangue you, Foofie?

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

You are feeling sorry for yourself with no good reason to do so. You sit unscathed by the actions of brutal dictators, yet you wish that on others, or often mention that you could care less that it happens to them.

As sad a human as you are, Foofie, if the day comes when they are coming to get you, I'll be there for you.

Don't you find it odd that there are none of the "hey, that's not what the thread is about" crowd around to harangue you, Foofie?

Your Lordship, I have to go read now, so the world will think Jews are smart. You though seem to think my focus is incorrect; it should be your focus. Notice I do not want you to empathize with my focus, since I would never expect someone like you to see past Your Lordship's nose.

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@panzade,

panzade wrote:

The US is a great country because even though it has done some shameful things, there are still avenues to discuss our short comings.

This vaguely reminds me of a "national delusion" that I think America has, of being a shining example of freedom and democracy, and I hope you will allow me to go on a bit of a tangent about that having been reminded by this post, I don't mean to imply that all these views are yours but only that it reminded me of them.

There is a narrative of exceptionalism that has been used, throughout history, as nationalistic propaganda sometimes in the support of the very wars and atrocities this thread is about, seeking to brand the war machine as an agent serving the world's freedom. Verily, if you criticize American militarism enough you'll hear some ignorant statement that your very ability to do so is contingent on the freedom that America's military is providing. Very often fundamentally good things about democracy are sold as fundamentally American products. This would only be a minor issue of jingoism if it weren't that this product's alleged export is sometimes the moral justification used for some of these atrocities in, or to deflect from criticism of our foreign policy ("they hate our freedom"), or to just ignore that when it comes to freedom America is more than willing to make big compromises in the freedoms of others for our strategic interests (e.g. replacing governments with totalitarian regimes that are in our pockets).

So of all the reasons that one may cite for the country being great, this is one of those that perennially baffles me. It's a low bar to set for being a great country, with an illusory scarcity. Basically, I think it's not something special about America, it's something ordinary and pedestrian (if fundamentally good, and hugely important) about developed democracies that American propaganda likes to white label.

And sadly, like Pax Britannica before it, and Pax Romana before that this notion of Pax Americana is a rose-colored spin on imperialism.

/rant

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

before that this notion of Pax Americana is a rose-colored spin on imperialism.

Far better us then Japan in relationship to the Philippines or Hawaii , better us then French controlling Mexico or the Spanish controlling South America or.....

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@BillRM,

That is a perspective whose perceived merit is profoundly influenced by whether or not the appraising eye is itself American.

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

profoundly influenced by whether or not the appraising eye is itself American.

Given that the Philippines had a sample of living under the Empire of the Raising Sun and was not at all happy your position does not seem to had merit.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

By the way, has it entered your consciousness that the recent drone strike in Yemen was against a U.S. citizen that was proselytizing anti-American rhetoric. Now, I am not implying that any drones are observing you; however, after 9/11 the concept of anti-American activities might be changing in the concept of free speech. Perhaps, you should ruminate on that a bit?

So someone who is peacefully pointing out America's wrongs is as legitimate a target as someone who is actively promoting terrorism. You certainly know how to grab the moral high ground.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

For example when we alone had atoms weapons we did not destroy the serous threat of the USSR.

I take it you're talking about the atomic bomb? This is a really bad example. Stalin was not at all surprised by Hiroshima, he had spies in the Manhattan Project. The USSR tested its first nuclear weapon in 1949. After Nagasaki America had used up all its bombs, and those were only made possible by the capture of Nazi uranium shortly after Germany's surrender. The USSR was vast, America was not in a position to destroy it in 1945, and it's dubious whether it could have had anywhere near enough bombs before 1949. The Soviets and Allies were eyeball to eyeball in Europe and the Soviet tanks were by far the best. Don't mistake pragmatism for altruism.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

. . . and those were only made possible by the capture of Nazi uranium shortly after Germany's surrender.

This is a ludicrously false statement. Your criticism of Bill's bullshit is well taken, but you make it ridiculous by throwing such a silly statement into your response.

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A pretty nifty trick there, by Foofie - Grabbing the moral high ground, while sliding into the gutter.

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@Setanta,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234. Weapons grade uranium was in short supply in 1945, America had already used up a lot testing the bomb. Are you saying that America could have carried out both Hiroshima and Nagasaki without the uranium on board U-234?

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Yes, i am. Read your own source. It states that it is unknown, and considered unlikely that the uranium was weapons grade. The United States had been processing uranium ore at Oak Ridge, Tennessee since early 1942, and had been producing plutonium from their own atomic pile in Chicago, also since early 1942. There would not have been time to process the uranium and run it through an atomic pile to produce plutonium before August, 1945.

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@Setanta,

I'm not convinced, stating that America had been processing since 1942 does sound impressive, but this was 1942 and processing such material was not as productive as today. That said, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just unconvinced.

BTW if you want an example of America's altruism what about the troops that are being sent to Uganda to combat the LRA? I think the Lord's Resistance Army is one of the most obnoxious organisations on the planet at the moment, and I welcome the intervention.

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@izzythepush,

I don't have a dog in that particular fight, so i have no comment about American "altuism."

The first bomb, Little Boy, was a uranium "gun" type. The components for the bomb were delivered to Tinian Island on July 26, 1945. They were delivered by the cruiser Indianapolis, which means at least two weeks to steam from Long Beach, and which also means two weeks to steam to Long Beach to pick them up. That means that the components were ready in late June, 1945, at the latest. Which means the manufacture of the components (then made "by hand" in machine shops in New Mexico) had to have begun in early June at the latest. There simply would not have been time to have delivered the German uranium oxide to Oak Ridge, process it and deliver it to New Mexico in time for use in Little Boy.

The second bomb, Fat Man, was a plutonium implosion device. That leaves the German uranium out of the picture all together.

You are correct as to the then difficulties in producing weapons grade uranium and plutonium--if the Japanese had called our bluff, we didn't have another bomb ready for months. I'm sure the German uranium was used for later devices, but not for the ones used on Japan.

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@Setanta,

Oh alright then.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Keep your mind open Gracie
Amen, and keep pushing to allow in as much truth as you can stand.

Absolutely.
Google can be your friend in this situation.
If someone starts 'quoting' facts to you, really.. all you have to do is type what they have quoted into google and go from there. You will always get a few different answers when you do that but it will give YOU several different angles on any subject. A little more sleuthing and you can find fact from fiction . Google is amazing so long as you remember a lot of the info you may find will come form an individual . You can find direct quotes from A2K in google search...so always look at the source, THEN question question question.

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@izzythepush,

We had four or so years where we could had build bombs and where did you get the idea that Germany provide any of the uranium for our bombs!!!!!!!!!

Hell they did not even had the ability to produce any weapon grade uranium.

Oh we had the only means of delivering the bombs by air and USSR did not until after they copy bolt for bolt our B-29 bombers using as models the few planes that was force to land in the Soviet territory after bombing missions on Japan.

Even then they could not produce the landing tires and needed to buy them on the open market from the US.

1 Reply

Is that stuff that JTT says about America true?

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