Rioting spreading through London & to other English cities.

Yep, it is a consolation - thank you - I think we are more attuned to Oz than we are America. I, and very many I know, have a bias for Oz tho

Interesting piece in the Guardian

UK riots: political classes see what they want to see
Aditya Chakrabortty on how the political classes, from both left and right, have attempted to explain this week's mayhem

Full story http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-political-classes


Interesting last paragaph

Mr Twitter just sent me this:

This is *brilliant* - the Daily Mail front page headline reads like a direct message to its readers!

I've read the news here and trust me when i say that this is not a spam!

Article Source: Weekend of London riots leaves city devastated by looting

Social networking sites have become breeding grounds for grave crimes such as these. What has the world gone into?! And Have you guys read about the infamous set of hackers that is about to bring apocalyptic end to all social networking sites such as Facebook? They said that it's gonna end at November 5th. What do you think about all of this?! Everything on the world of Net has gone completely mad!

I think it ties into the strong push to watch and regulate the internet...I further think the the rest of the world will largly come around to the Chinese Communists position on this issue.

Another hear, hear. This is exactly what I've been thinking all week and tried to express earlier in the thread when I said that there is something within someone that leads to them respond to their own despair, despondence and deprivation by taking from others and causing destruction instead of construction.
Most poor people don't behave or react this way to their circumstances.
I have worked with impoverished people my whole career - so yes- I have seen that their circumstances and lives are different from mine - but I've also seen that the huge majority of poor people do not turn to criminality. So no - I won't give these criminals a by on their criminality because they are poor.
If someone behaves criminally and is also poor - they are criminally inclined poor people - they're not just poor people reacting in an excusable manner (for them).
And criminal behavior is explainable - it's a conscious decision to act outside of the law.
Not everyone is willing to do that- poor or not.

And I do love this country - very much. I love this country as much, if not more than the country I was born in- that's why I choose to live here.
And I have to tell you, as an American, I look at the benefits this country provides its residents, and am amazed.
Yeah, maybe certain socialist countries provide more, but I'm constantly feeling awe at what is provided- and some confusion- as to how the government is supposed to be able and is expected to provide all of these benefits to any citizen of the EU who decides to move here with his or her family.

Anyway - I'm just glad it seems to be over. And very sad for the three young men who lost their lives in Birmingham - and the other men who were killed - the as yet unidentified older man who was beaten within an inch of his life - all of the people who had their homes and businesses burned to the ground, etc.

And if I had participated in creating this mayhem, I'd also feel responsible for being a part of a situation that resulted in death and destruction for these people. If I had even just stolen a toothbrush from Boots - even if I needed one and couldn't buy one - I'd have to recognize that me being out there on the street participating helped create a situation and scenario where people lost their lives, homes, businesses and elderly people lost their sense of safety and security in their communities and in which one little child will never know her father.
One of the young men killed Wednesday in Birmingham was a recently married man whose wife is four months pregnant.
Another child without a father....and whose fault is it?
Not the poor people who were obeying the law.

That's what I mean about people who are criminally inclined not seeing or caring about the consequences of their actions - to themselves - but especially not to others.
As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the most important parts of my job - helping them see this -right up there with teaching them how to read.
And me excusing criminality by saying it's part and parcel of being poor would be bullshit.

I don't hate these people - I love them- and I wouldn't choose to work with any other population. But I'm not going to do poor people everywhere and around the world the disservice of equating poverty with criminality.
It's a different entity entirely.

And yes, I also do know there is a correlation between poverty and criminality, just as there is a correlation between illiteracy and criminality - but what I'm saying is that there is a separate facet and decision making process involved in turning to criminal activity if one is poor or illiterate - it takes something else in a person to allow them to make this decision to behave criminally whereas another person in the same situation doesn't.

Excusing criminality or explaining criminal behavior based on a person's socioeconomic circumstances is akin to excusing it or explaining it based on the color of a person's skin.
I find it offensive to all the poor people who aren't criminals, just as I'd find it offensive to all the people of color who aren't criminals and don't behave criminally.

You are off course aidan, it is not about what one has or does not have, it is about being invested with the collective or not. When the laws and the distribution of societal assets become grossly unfair as they have become the message to the have nots is "we do not care about you". The payback is that eventually they will not care about themselves either, and they will not care about others either. Treat people like animals for long enough and that is how many of them will end up acting, it is human nature. (Something that I would expect you to know given where you work).

The liberals spent a lot of money trying to keep the peace with handouts, which are now cut, but that was at best getting by it was not a life and in anycase is now over as the states are now bankrupt. The current leadership know only to go get a bigger hammer to keep the peace. Niether short cut is going to work over the long haul. What is missing from the majority as well as the ruling class is a genuine caring about others as well as a wiilingness to share fairly the riches and fairly the workload. THAT is what we need to find, and it is in short supply from all segments of the population in the UK and in America. Europe is slightly better off I think.

Are you advocating communism hawkeye?
I don't care whether or not you think I'm off-base.
I have my view and you have yours.
Mine is not based on anything else but years of observation.
I care about poor people - yes I do - I care too much about them to have them all seen as opportunistic and potential criminals just waiting to happen.
I don't know what the answer is - I just know I'm not willing to call this criminal behavior anything other than what it is.
I'm calling a spade a spade - bottom line.
Doesn't mean I don't want to be a part of looking for a solution. I do.
But the first part of finding a solution to any problem is correctly identifying it.
And to attribute behavior solely to one cause as opposed to admitting or realizing that it takes a separate and distinct element to make it occur is counter effective and defeating to the final solution.
This is not only about dissatisfaction and deprivation.. It is also about the willingness that some people have to behave criminally to get what they want.
It couldn't have and wouldn't have happened without that element.
It would have been a peaceful protest.
Have a nice weekend.

Hawkeye speaks with great authority about things he knows nothing about. Povery in itself does not breed criminal behaviour, but there's a whole host of other factors that need to be taken into account. The scrapping of apprenticeships, EMA and other cuts to local authority spending helped nurture this culture of hopelessness. We didn't have riots when Labour were in power.

Haringey scrapped most of its youth clubs (I think 15 of 17) due to financial stricture imposed on them, and a month later, riots in Tottenham.

I don't think these events are coincidental. And indeed, they were predicted by several commentators.

To be a bit more controversial: does anyone suspect, as I do, that the police were dilatory in dealing with the outset of the riots because they were resentful of government attidudes and budget cuts?

I think they wanted to show what could happen. And then it all got out of hand.
How else can the no-show be explained?

We try not to talk about that sort of thing Mac. After all, looting is a minor problem compared to that.

It you wish peace and a stable society the only way to do so is having the vast bulk of the population to be stake holders in that society.

Strange that there is a group of people on this website who think that a small ruling class can seize all or at least most of the wealth of a society and not have the society come apart as a result.

Aidan if you are a young man and see no path to a life where you can earn a good living and support a family by being a law abiding citizen and yet you see a small percent of the population living very very high indeed why would you not come to the conclusion that hitting back is the way to go and at the same time grabbing some of the tokens of a good life.

He was caught smoking cannabis at Eton at a time when it was a serious offence. He was punished with 500 lines.

Of coke!

When did the Liberals do this?

I think you may well be right, the fall out between ministers and senior police officers is just starting to kick off.

Is that how you view the rioters and their looting? I'm asking because I still haven't read every post and just want clarification.