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Rioting spreading through London & to other English cities.

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:25 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

It is precisely the environment that I work in that has taught me that there is a real sense of 'entitlement' that often leads to criminal behavior. 'Can't get what you think you deserve legally? Get it by any means necessary,' is what I hear over and over again every day.
This sentiment is exactly what seems to be playing out on the streets of England this week.
Sorry, but I equate that with criminality.

This doesn't mean that I don't like the people I work with, in a lot of ways, I like them very much. But there is a real palpable and tangible difference in the decision making processes of law-abiders and respecters of the property and rights of others and those who are more casual about the law and property and rights of others.
I've decided it has a lot to do with impulsive and rash behavior - which often leads to criminality.
Many times what stands between the criminal and law abider is simply recognition of the fact that actions have consequences.
By the age of eighteen, if a person is of normal intelligence and without learning disabilities, they'd have been thinking in these abstract terms for almost ten years.
They should know right from wrong.
Bottom line.


I completely agree with you. It seems that line from right to wrong has been marred somewhere along the way in this world.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:33 pm
I have read a few of your {everyone's} post but there is just to many for me to try and catch up on.

I was very surprised to see that some of you seem to see this for what it is, A class of people left behind and without hope because their neighbors do not love them as themselves so to speak!
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:46 pm
@reasoning logic,
There was a lot of unanimity amongst C4 pundits tonight. We have 15yr olds bringing up kids, no positive male role models, postcode prejudice, 3rd/4th generation unemployment, and no real prospects even before the cuts started, let alone now. I think anyone would have a rather warped view of right and wrong, being brought up under those circumstances.
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:46 pm
@wandeljw,
ha! well, maybe in these thum 'ills I was hearing things Embarrassed ... is it on..? I don't know - BBC's got the darn lottery on at the mo!!!


edit: nope, it's not on - I'm sure they just advertised it - they did, I'm not going mad


10:35 PM, Thursday 11th August 2011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013y4gm/Question_Time_Riot_Special/


edit again:

OH MY LAWD - IT'S WEDNESDAY - DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <SHAKES HEAD Embarrassed >



edit edit again: First time I've been in time for something for a long time Razz Mr. Green <in my bubble, it's been Thursday ALL DAY!>
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:47 pm
@reasoning logic,
Yeah, they do look kind of lovable don't they? If you have the right perspective, I mean.

I won't ask about your own perspective.
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:49 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I think anyone would have a rather warped view of right and wrong, being brought up under those circumstances.


You are right on target!
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:54 pm
@roger,
Quote:
Yeah, they do look kind of lovable don't they? If you have the right perspective, I mean.



Under the wrong conditions both me and you would both look just as lovable!
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:57 pm
@reasoning logic,
Why does someone HAVE to have a warped view of right and wrong because of their circumstances? Since when is what someone else does or our environment responsible for what WE do? Can it influence us? Yes, but the final decision is completely our own to make.

A serial killer knows he is wrong but he does it anyway. People know this rioting is wrong but they do it anyway. They are all making the choice to do it.

Why not make the choice to rise above and do what is right instead?
Izzie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:04 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

Why does someone HAVE to have a warped view of right and wrong because of their circumstances? Since when is what someone else does or our environment responsible for what WE do? Can it influence us? Yes, but the final decision is completely our own to make.

A serial killer knows he is wrong but he does it anyway. People know this rioting is wrong but they do it anyway. They are all making the choice to do it.

Why not make the choice to rise above and do what is right instead?



Hey Arella - for most of us that is morally how we live in our environments. The world is not black and white - there are many shades of grey.

No, it won't excuse "criminal behaviour"

It shouldn't excuse it.

I certainly am leaning far over to the "bang 'em all up"... but that still is not going to change this generation who believes in their "entitlement" - it won't change it, it will worsen it until someone, somewhere, comes up with a plan. Perhaps that will be the community who will take a far more dim view of their neighbours behaviour.

I do understand / or am trying to understand why and how these things happen. We can all sit on our moral high horses because many of us have not known/do not know HOW people go out and do this - but we do not have their lives either so...

for me, I do understand the affects of "no hope" and the affect that can have on peoples actions - even if my experiences with this are so completely different. At the end of the day, the law is the law. If someone does wrong - they are culpable - and in these events I do hope they will answer for their actions and they learn the consequences of their actions.

As I said before - a lot of this was competitive gangs... so as previously said, yep, there is often no shame for being locked up.

That is terribly terribly sad.

However, I have seen this. It is heartbreaking.




EDIT: I might add also - this is not just the generation below me - there were plenty of adults out there looting - this was NOT just kids, by no mean. No age boundary, no colour boundary, even shoot-at-your-neighbour-gangs joined forces - once this is over, it will go back to as was!
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:04 pm
@Arella Mae,
Not everyone is as intellectual as you are!

Not everyone has the emotional intelligence as you do!

We are all different! eyesight, hearing, physical ability, brain function, environment, so on and so on!

It is very complex and I do not understand it all!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  5  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:04 pm
@Arella Mae,
That's quite an easy thing to say when you don't live in a tower block in Hackney. Unless the underlying issues are looked at this will never go away, unfortunately the Condems have neither the will or the money to do anything about it.
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:08 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

That's quite an easy thing to say when you don't live in a tower block in Hackney. Unless the underlying issues are looked at this will never go away, unfortunately the Condems have neither the will or the money to do anything about it.


yes, quite, I'zy. I edited above to try and outline the same (without the political statement Razz) <I'ze crahp at political arguments - way too emotional Wink >
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:21 pm
@Izzie,
I know chuck, I've agreed with most of what you've said.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:23 pm
@Izzie,
Even gangs start for a reason. Of course, power and money are involved but some gang history has to do with alienation going on at the start, probably on both sides of the matter. And later, it's the obvious road for choice for some.

A long ago friend came from a sicilian family, in both senses of the word. He said that the groups started in self protection, from which situation, I don't remember; I think I've read as much, but not being that fact retentive, and not being sicilian, I don't know.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:27 pm
@reasoning logic,
I do hope you understand there is a difference between stealing for survival and torching cars and buildings, and beating people. Not so loveable.

Actually, the distinction may be a bit subtle for you.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:35 pm
@JPB,
nice, don't see enough about phil ochs
0 Replies
 
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:46 pm
@roger,
[quote="roger"]
I do hope you understand there is a difference between stealing for survival and torching cars and buildings, and beating people.
[/quote]

Yep a distinction I was trying to make earlier with Aidan, not attempting to digress Smile


((Rat)) - loveable, and most certainly not feral Very Happy
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:48 pm
@roger,
Quote:
I do hope you understand there is a difference between stealing for survival and torching cars and buildings, and beating people. Not so loveable.

Actually, the distinction may be a bit subtle for you.


Environmental challenges are our biggest challenges and it is {me and you} that are these environmental challenges!

We are not all the same! Under the wrong neurological conditions you could end up like my father and many others that are lacking in empathy!
My father's father had a master degree in science and my grandmother was a loving person with a degree of her own. All of my father's brothers and sister went to college and graduated and some run some parts of a state.
My father seemed to be born without empathy, sympathy and also lacking in logic.

Please study neuroscience neurophilosophy, psychology and sociology If you do care to understand how we as a people see reality and how our brains function!
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:58 pm
I am not trying to be on any moral high horse. My life has not been all peaches and cream. I've been through some pretty horrific things in my life and most of them as a child and young adult.

I know environments and other things can influence us. I would never deny that. But, we have to make a decision. Do we let the bad that happened to us shape us into what we are or do we do something about it and try to overcome it? How many times have any of you given the advice to someone to get counseling for a problem? Why do you do that? Don't you do it so that person who is suffering can find a better way and come out a better person because of the better way?

I hear so often "hurting people hurt people". To me that is so mixed up! Now, there was a time I did that very thing.......I hurt people because I was hurt. What a dolt I was! The people I hurt had nothing to do with my being hurt in the first place. Thank God, and I do mean thank God, someone got through to me and helped me to see if I was going to be any kind of decent human being at all that I was going to have to learn to cope and deal with life and start making the right choices and stop hurting and blaming other people because I was hurt.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being on any moral high horse.
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 05:15 pm
@Arella Mae,
Oh no Arella, please don't think I was talking about you specifically - I am talking about us a society. I know you, Arella, and I know your heart is good. We've talked many times.

No No, our society is currently sitting on a moral high horse and livid, spitting mad and wanting to bring this to a stop - as I reckoned, vigilantism came into force last night as 3 young men tried to protect their neighbourhood. If the reports are correct, he was mown down by a car and all 3 young folk murdered by someone who I believe should be locked up and throw away the key, right now. His father spoke today. It's is utterly soul destroying.

I am on my moral high horse but I have never lived their lives, and I won't excuse it or their behaviour - my life doesn't even come close to how these folk live and I don't think it ever would - but I do know how this is happening - and we have to figure out what we can do.

Telling them "it's just plain wrong" and "they should know better" (not quoting anyone in particular, many of us have said this over the past few days) - well, that's because that is how we live within our moral compass - but they don't... they don't have the same values, they have little hope. I know this for fact - but I do not live like that.

We have to try and stop this from re-occuring. Somehow. We can't just lock them up and throw away the key (well, maybe with the murdering gIt) - we have to get the communities together to ensure there is a way forward. We don't have the resources to lock 'em all up - how do we possibly have the resources to get "community service" in force. There are not enough coffers as it is. Our probabtion service have thousands to enforce the orders meted out. I don't know how they will do this.

Condemnation, yes, we are all (most) condemning this - our lives are so different.

This is not just in the UK - this is worldwide.

People can come from nothing, have nothing, make their way, maybe some mistakes, they can change and they can become successful.

Not all can tho.


Please believe me Arella, I was not referring to you as an individual, nor Aidan when I was writing to her. I know what you have been through. I know what I and mine have been through.

I am not lowering my morals or tolerance.

I am trying to seek a way forward. Any ideas have got to be better than "no ideas". This is my country - I do wish for better for these people. I condemn their actions. It does disgust me - I have been consistent throughout about this.

I have been getting my 14 year old to watch the news so that he can understand more and he is horrified also. It's a start. Hopefully, as I say, the neighbours/friends/family of those named and shamed MAY, just MAY think a little more before they act and react. MAYBE the communities will try and find more of way forward than this government can - hopefully, by registering the rights and wrongs of these hooligans behaviour.

I think there is little hope for many of these hardened gangs tho.

Consequences need to have meaning now. Locking them up for a bit, then sending them back on the streets - well, now they have a criminal record so getting a job is going to be even harder for them - and so it starts again. They are throwing their future away - they don't care right now, they don't believe they have a future - this has been widely dicussed on the BBC today.

Some/many of them I do believe will regret being in the mob as they mature.

Reflection. A wonderful hindsight. It won't change the past. Now the government and the UK has to attempt to turn this around.

Do you understand what I am obviously badly attempting to explain?

((Arella))




edited as I went along - sorry
 

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