hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 03:47 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

Engineer says it well.
He is a fine example of garden variety liberal self loathing...his spiel reminds me of all the chin wagging after the election that white's hates blacks so much that surely one of them is going to attempt to assassinate Obama. I am still waiting.
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 04:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
No, engineer is right! You just don't know it as you're the housefrau of the family. You stay at home with the kids and your wife has a career. Apparently you resent this more than you seem to admit to yourself.

Women certainly have come a long way from the times where they weren't even allowed to vote, however, as a woman, I can tell you that most of us
are still disadvantaged in a corporate setting and it doesn't have to come from a superior either, a simple male co-worker can make your life miserable just because he thinks that a woman's place is in the kitchen.

Get real! The cracker-barrel wisdom you're sprouting, is as far removed
from reality as a donkey in Ascot.
ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 04:18 pm
@Setanta,
I know one woman among my girlfriends who does generally fear men. I don't know the basis, since I tend to not question people but will listen if they tell me their situations. I can suppose she is not alone in this.

I don't think any of the men in my life of school, work, family, social situations, really feared women - separating that from denegration as control or humor - but maybe I wasn't paying attention. I'll agree that constant anti woman sniping is a clue to fear, but I don't know those guys in daily life. And I suppose constant anti-men sniping is a clue to fear too. In both cases, bravado on parade.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 04:25 pm
@jcboy,
I like you, jcboy, because you are straight
forward.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 04:31 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
a simple male co-worker can make your life miserable just because he thinks that a woman's place is in the kitchen.
Just as one female who does not like men can make life miserable for all the men around her, or a guy can make another mans life miserable at work or some bullshit reason or another. In my experience a cute and/or fun woman can get away with a lot with men around, either as co-workers or a boss, that she can not with women, your insinuation that guys make things hard for women does not jive with what I have seen in my twenty years of working.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 08:53 pm
@engineer,
Very good stuff there, engineer. I can't disagree with any of it.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 09:01 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

Very good stuff there, engineer. I can't disagree with any of it.
You are of course one of the people who were sure that Angry White Men where out to assassinate Obama because of his skill color, so your low opinion of white men is known.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 09:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
In my experience a cute and/or fun woman can get away with a lot with men around, either as co-workers or a boss, that she can not with women

Maybe that's because the men take that "cute/and or fun" woman less seriously, and they let her entertain or please them, and consequently they overlook a lot because they are not regarding her with equal status, which would be a form of sexism. Another woman may simply expect her to do her job--which is what she should be doing, and not getting away with anything more than any other employee, male or female.

Women shouldn't have to be "cute/and or fun" in a workplace in order to have good relationships with male co-workers--in fact, male co-workers or bosses who would overlook a lot from that "cute/and or fun" female, would probably anger any other women in the firm or office who work hard to avoid making errors, and who make sure they meet deadlines and get their work completed, and who don't try to get away with anythng. In their own way, these men who have a different set of standards for a "cute and/or fun" female would be as bad as those who make a female co-worker miserable because they think a woman's place is in the kitchen, they're both being sexist, but in different ways.



firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 09:32 pm
@engineer,
Great post, engineer.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 09:39 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Women shouldn't have to be "cute/and or fun" in a workplace in order to have good relationships with male co-workers--in fact, male co-workers or bosses who would overlook a lot from that "cute/and or fun" female, would probably anger any other women in the firm or office who work hard to avoid making errors, and who make sure they meet deadlines and get their work completed, and who don't try to get away with anythng. In their own way, these men who have a different set of standards for a "cute and/or fun" female would be as bad as those who make a female co-worker miserable because they think a woman's place is in the kitchen, they're both being sexist, but in different ways.
there is of course plenty of moaning in feminist circles about the "slut culture", where so many women go so far to dress and act in ways pleasing to men. I dont mind....I dont take spendius's view that this is all about getting men worked up so that they can be knocked down, with the aid of the state. I think most of the time women want men to like them, and so they do their part to be appealing.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2011 10:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
there is of course plenty of moaning in feminist circles about the "slut culture", where so many women go so far to dress and act in ways pleasing to men. I dont mind.

No, actually the "slut culture" is promoted by some modern feminists as being empowering for young women, essentially by encouraging them to act like frat boys.
Quote:
I dont mind....I think most of the time women want men to like them, and so they do their part to be appealing.

You don't mind because you reduce females to their sexuality, so if they look, dress, and act, like sluts, that's fine with you because the sex is up front.

But we were discussing workplace situations, or corporate situations, or professional situations--where women go to do their jobs or pursue their careers--where ability to do one's job, and not being "cute/ and or fun", or sexually pleasing and attractive to men, should be the main factor, just as it would be for a man in the same situation. Women in such situations should not have to conform to either men's sexist stereotypes or men's sexual fantasies to be treated with respect and given equal opportunities and advancements.

You act as though you are only talking about women as seen from your perch on a bar stool when you are looking around and sizing them up for a sexual hook-up. That's not the real everyday world for most adult men and women who interact with each other in all sorts of ways during the course of the day, including at work, in ways that do not involve sexuality, and in which frank expressions of sexuality would be downright inappropriate.

You also sound as though you are always speaking about very young women, whether referring to them as "cute/and or fun" or "hot" or part of the "slut culture". The great majority of women are out of their late teens and early 20's, Hawkeye--some are even executives, and surgeons, and lawyers, and astronauts, and college professors, and elected public officials. Your sexism is revealed in your sexual focus on women, and their sexual attributes and attractiveness--as sex objects. Perhaps that's why you can't understand the real inequalities, and disadvantages, and problems, women can face in their jobs or careers, simply due to their gender and the hostile or sexist attitudes of some males. The truth may be that you're too busy thinking about their tits, or how to get them into bed, to be able to engage in more serious conversation about more serious issues.

I'm not sure you really like women, Hawkeye. You like them as sex objects, and as sexual partners who will gratify your desires, but I don't really think you like women as people at all.

Oylok
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 01:17 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Men and women might really tend to have a different set of traits on some continuum of male/female traits. I say this since Asperger's, that is mostly a guy thing, might have something to do with a gene on the "Y" chromosome (that women do not have). And, relating to this, one theory of Asperger's is that it is a syndrome of hyper-male thinking, in that Asperger's folk like systematizing things, memorizing facts, enjoying objects/things, as opposed to relationships/emotions.


Personally, Foofie, I subscribe to the theory that blames my Asperger's on an excess of testosterone. When I think about my own flaws that have held me back in life, they are all extremely masculine in nature: emotional flooding, an overly aggressive style of leadership, narrowness of focus, etc. (These problems I face would have been problematic even in past eras, when men dominated society, because they cause difficulty even when I have to converse with other men.)

Quote:
So, if one is a male, and really values the world of maleness (i.e., sports, working with one's hands, stoicism, giving advice rather than conversing, etc.) then it is conceivable that women and their world of emotional feeling, cooperative, nurtering friendships, and the ability to talk about one's feelings, can then be too different for some men to ever feel comfortable?


If one really values the world of maleness, then, sure. But let us not be quick to assume that Aspies, being excessively masculine in some ways, somehow value the world of maleness more than the feminine aspect of humanity. Because I sometimes struggle to articulate my emotions, I tend to value the input of an empathetic person who can help me do so, even more so than a normal guy might. A highly verbal type who's a good listener can often finish my sentences for me, when I can't find the words. Because I'm so competitive in debates and lack any real ability to build consensus (in support of my opinions or ideas, that is), I tend to appreciate the presence of someone who's better at that, more than others might. Indeed, I don't think that Aspies, who are, perhaps, overly male, value maleness more; I think we're sick to death of it because our inescapably masculine nature plagues us.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 01:26 am
@firefly,
I said
Quote:
there is of course plenty of moaning in feminist circles about the "slut culture", where so many women go so far to dress and act in ways pleasing to men. I dont mind.


Firefly said
Quote:
No, actually the "slut culture" is promoted by some modern feminists as being empowering for young women, essentially by encouraging them to act like frat boys.


So here you attempt to call my claims of moaning about slut culture by feminists by saying that "some modern feminists" promote it, as if this if true means that I am wrong. Not that you bother to document any of you assertions naturally. This is the sloppy logic that we can expect from you on a constant basis, and given that you are so smart that you could certainly avoid these kinds of basic argument mistakes I think it is fair to assume that this is more of the Firefly deceit of which we see so much of.

I was think along the lines of this

Quote:
According to its website, SlutWalk was created by women who “are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by [their] sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result.” SlutWalk aims to “reclaim” the word “slut,” by taking to the streets and demanding people begin to think about the way women are damaged by stereotyping. What’s now grown into a Global North movement, SlutWalk has predictably captivated the media. One can read numerous blogs and articles, and examine diametrically opposed op-eds posted on both sides of the Atlantic – all authored by white women. With such a sensationalized event name, it makes sense that the event would gain attraction. What doesn’t make sense is the racist way in which SlutWalk has chosen to present itself – the result of the group’s white leadership, which has systematically silenced the voices of women of color. Women are left with little assurance that the word “slut” can even be reclaimed at all, and it would be absurd to imagine that SlutWalk’s dramatized events will do anything to stop any kind of violence against women.
.
.
.
If SlutWalk has proven anything, it is that liberal white women are perfectly comfortable parading their privilege, absorbing every speck of airtime celebrating their audacity, and ignoring women of color. Despite decades of work from women of color on the margins to assert an equitable space, SlutWalk has grown into an international movement that has effectively silenced the voices of women of color and re-centered the conversation to consist of a topic by, of, and for white women only. More than 30 years ago, Gloria Anzaldúa wrote, “I write to record what others erase when I speak.” Unfortunately, SlutWalk’s leadership obliterated Anzaldúa’s voice, and the marvelous work she produced theorizing what it means to be a queer woman of color. They might do us all a favor now and stop erasing the rest of us for once.


http://tothecurb.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/slutwalk-a-stroll-through-white-supremacy/

Now that Slut Walks have become so popular (though it is not clear that that are popular for the reason the organizers intend them to be) the feminists have taken credit for them, however I have seen reports that the organizers early on approached feminist organizations for support and we rebuffed. The original even was expected to draw only a few hundred after a handful of women (mostly from the university) carried on by themselves, though it drew thousands.

From the founders of Slut Walk

Quote:
We’re not coming from enormous feminist backgrounds, or even activist backgrounds. I’ve never been in a protest or done any kind of activist work. But we’re learning, and it’s been such an amazing education for me in all this. I admit that I started at ground zero on this, but those people who sit behind their laptops have no idea what we’re doing or the hardwork that has gone into it all. It’s infuriating because they have the comfort of anonymity, saying that we shouldn’t be doing this, or should be doing something else, when they themselves are doing nothing but using loud words, and not working towards any of the causes that we feel are important.

I don’t understand people that support norms that are harmful to so many. It’s so easy to maintain the status quo, or insult those who don’t. It’s making our work extremely difficult.

HJ: That’s why I love Pippi Longstocking! Optimism achieves more than pessimism!

LA: You’re going to a desert island, and you’re allowed to take one food, one drink and one feminist. What do you pick?

HJ: Strawberry rhubarb pie, because I love pie even more than cupcakes. Water. And I think I would have to choose Madonna. I think she would have lots of amazing stories, and I could learn a lot from her, and she’s such a sex positive amazing badass. I would love it!

SB: I would pick bbq spare ribs, champagne, and — I’m not sucking up here; I watched her TED Talk a couple weeks ago in the midst of SlutWalk planning and it kept me going — I would say Courtney Martin. I’m so inspired by her that I could sit and chat with her all night.

http://feministing.com/2011/04/16/the-feministing-five-sonya-barnett-and-heather-jarvis/


Quote:
I'm not sure you really like women, Hawkeye. You like them as sex objects, and as sexual partners who will gratify your desires, but I don't really think you like women as people at all.
Isn't it just like a woman to get all particular about the reasons she is wanted. There is a time and a place for everything, and certainly there are times when I have no interest what is on the mind of the woman I am with, but I dont discriminate against women on the job or in conversation either.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 02:44 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Isn't it just like a woman to get all particular about the reasons she is wanted. There is a time and a place for everything, and certainly there are times when I have no interest what is on the mind of the woman I am with, but I dont discriminate against women on the job or in conversation either.

I didn't say you discriminated against women, I said you really don't like women--as people. You like them as sex objects, and as sexual partners who will gratify your desires, but, otherwise, I get the impression you would avoid women altogether.

You've told us in other threads you don't like talking to women in non-sexual social situations--you prefer company that is exclusively male. You describe women's personality characteristics in the most sweeping negative over-generalized stereotypes--all women are deceitful, dishonest, untrustworthy, overly emotional, manipulative, bitchy, want to control men, etc. without ever saying anything of a positive nature about women in general. I don't think any stereotypes are really accurate, and when you try to stereotype an entire gender group--half the world's population--they will definitely be inaccurate, but you never even mention positive personality attributes of women, things you admire or like in women--the things you say about women, as a group, are almost entirely negative--and very sexist.

I don't know whether you hate women, but I have the definite impression you don't like them...as people.

And, while you say, "I dont discriminate against women on the job or in conversation either," you certainly do let out your hostile feelings toward woman in numerous threads on this board, in unmistakable terms. And. generally, as soon as anyone confronts you with what you have been saying, you try to deny it, or rationalize it, or explain it away, or soften it, so you won't sound quite so blatantly hostile or sexist about women, but I think those are just attempts to rehabilitate your image after you've already exposed your real feelings.

Just the fact that you boast that you would arrogantly disregard the laws against forcible sexual assault/rape of an unwilling women, as an "act of conscience", because you think these laws are "bad" and "unjust to men" says volumes about how you feel toward women--when it comes to your sexual gratification, and your need for sexual "conquest", you don't want to have to consider the woman's feelings in the matter at all, let alone consider her basic human dignity, or civil rights--you don't want to allow her any choice in the matter of a sexual contact with you, and you have said you would rape by physical force--because you don't like the laws--the woman is irrelevant--you have reduced her to the status of a non-person. Whether this is just swagger that internet anonymity affords you, and you are voicing things you might not actually do in real life, your attitude toward women comes through loud and clear--you really don't like women.


0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 03:39 am
Well, for as fascinating (Rolling Eyes) as Chicken Little's pathology is, we are straying from the subject. But anyone who continues to argue with him the tripe he's spewed all over this site for years is just feeding the troll.

I think it is well enough established now why men might hate women, and i will reiterate that it is a prejudiced bigotry equivalent to racism. Engineer has given us some good reasons why men might fear women (as they would fear members of minorities, too, challengers for their former seemingly unassailably superior positions). Does anyone else have any other ideas on why men might fear women?
eurocelticyankee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 03:42 am
@Setanta,
Because if you piss them off they could cut you nuts off while you're sleeping.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 03:54 am
@eurocelticyankee,
Do you have nightmares about Lorena?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 03:58 am
@Setanta,
Yea, she cut off something else and threw it in the street, as she left.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 04:03 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Does anyone else have any other ideas on why men might fear women?
The only reason that I know of
is what WE PROJECT onto them with our emotions.
Wisely is it said that: "a coward dies 1000 deaths; a brave man dies but 1."





David
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2011 04:04 am
@OmSigDAVID,
And the lesson is.......sleep on your stomach.
0 Replies
 
 

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