52
   

Osama Bin Laden is dead

 
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 01:09 pm
@farmerman,
You know what the funny and the really sad thing about what this has illustrated is, Farmer.

When it all gets boiled down, the margin between you, Cy and others and BillRM, Oralloy, h2oman, okie, ... is slim, at best.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 01:12 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

You know what the funny and the really sad thing about what this has illustrated is, Farmer.

When it all gets boiled down, the margin between you, Cy and others and BillRM, Oralloy, h2oman, okie, ... is slim, at best.


Well yeah; we all look the same, when compared to a total ******* nutjob like yourself, JTT.

Seriously; nobody here gives a **** for your opinions or your style of presenting them, and you really have become quite trollish. If you can't even attempt to get along, why don't you just do yourself a favor and piss off?

Cycloptichorn
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 01:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
No, Cy, you don't look the same, but judging from your response, which obviously hit home, [the truth does that] you know that you are acting the same.

Both you and Farmer have been making the same lame excuses for US war crimes/instances of mass murder/extensive use of torture/... while decrying the tiny, by comparison, actions of OBL. He hadn't even been indicted. The FBI didn't list 9-11 as one of the actions he was involved in.

The Taliban had offered him up a number of times and yet, you sit quietly, except to jump on the "Alright America!" lunacy bandwagon, not mentioning that Afghanistan and Iraq have paid a terrible price for doing absolutely nothing to the US.

Where is your sense of balance, h2oman/okie/BillRM?

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 01:44 pm
Quote:
After bin Laden
Implications for U.S. Policy in Afghanistan and Pakistan

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/05/img/after_bin_laden_onpage.jpg
SOURCE: AP/Pablo Martinez Monsivais

By Caroline Wadhams, Colin Cookman | May 3, 2011

The May 1, 2011, raid that killed fugitive Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden has the potential to reshape world events across a range of relationships and countries, including our complicated ties with Pakistan and Afghanistan, as well as the internal political upheaval taking place in the Arab world, in which Al Qaeda has largely been bypassed.

Within the United States the Obama administration now has an opportunity to lead a serious reassessment of the past 10 years of American security policy, particularly the degree to which it has become distorted around Al Qaeda and the person of bin Laden himself. This is a distortion most powerful in our discussion of U.S. interests and activities in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Bin Laden’s death does not mean the United States should declare “mission accomplished” in Afghanistan or end our targeted counterterrorism efforts in Pakistan. But it does offer the Obama administration an opportunity to reassess the challenges in Afghanistan beyond the specter of Al Qaeda, to reduce our military and financial investments, and to realign our approach around a political track in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the region.

Osama bin Laden’s death clarifies that the United States has the ability to protect U.S. interests independent of Afghan and Pakistani cooperation. Afghan political leaders and commanders have extracted substantial support from the United States over the past decade predicated on the idea that their cooperation against Al Qaeda is so invaluable that America cannot risk alienating them. To a lesser degree, so too have their counterparts in Pakistan. The costs of these rentier relationships (both financially and in terms of the distortionary effect it has on the internal political dynamics in both countries) and the question of who depends on whom the most in the partnership needs to be seriously reevaluated after bin Laden’s removal.

If Afghan and Pakistani leaders do not move on some of the essential political reforms required for long-term peace, then the United States should exercise the option to reduce its financial and military support and presence at a faster rate than the current 2014 timeline indicates. We do not have to be held captive by Afghan and Pakistani leaders because of our fears surrounding Al Qaeda. The capture and killing of Osama bin Laden may allow us to put this threat into perspective.

The Obama administration has placed the disruption and defeat of Al Qaeda as the central goal of its policy toward both Afghanistan and Pakistan, but Al Qaeda has been a minor player in Afghanistan for some time due to our sustained assault on the network—especially over the past two years. Indeed, bin Laden’s death is unlikely to have a direct impact on:

* The strength of the Taliban insurgency in either nation
* The weakness of President Hamid Karzai’s government
* Pakistan’s contentious relations with its neighbors and growing nuclear program
* Islamabad’s inability to mobilize public resources to address its economic and financial crises

There are broader concerns for the United States in both countries than just Al Qaeda.

With or without Al Qaeda, the United States has an interest in a peaceful Afghanistan and Pakistan that serves regional and international stability and does justice to the investments we have made there. In order to pursue this, the United States needs to seek a political solution to the conflict in Afghanistan and support a transition process to Afghan leadership that more directly addresses the exclusivity, unsustainability, and ineffectiveness of the current balance of power that constitutes the Afghan government. Altering this will require a political reform agenda, negotiations with high-level insurgents, reconciliation at the local level, and regional dialogue.

Pakistan’s leaders—military, civilian, and intelligence—must cooperate with this effort in open and meaningful ways. It is in their best interest to do so, and their relationship with many militant groups means they may possess levers of influence that could bring some to the negotiating table. If they do not because of misguided and misplaced efforts to prepare for worries about Indian influence in Afghanistan after U.S. forces withdraw, then the United States needs to be prepared to impose consequences on those parts of the Pakistani state that continue to obstruct U.S. interests.

All of these efforts are the products of American political and economic leverage, not military operations. They require a recalibration of our national security portfolio, both in regards to how it is structured in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in the region, and around the world. This shift requires engaging with Afghanistan and Pakistan as countries with their own unique internal challenges.

A concerted effort is required to manage the shift in our investments to a more sustainable level and to reduce the enormous dependencies we have sponsored in Afghanistan through a drawdown in U.S. forces over the course of the next three years. Bin Laden’s death eliminates a major threat to the United States but it does not eliminate the need to seek a sustainable political settlement in Afghanistan that is supported by all of the responsible political players in Pakistan.

Caroline Wadhams is a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress. Colin Cookman is a Research Assistant with the National Security team at the Center.


http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/05/after_bin_laden.html

Cycloptichorn
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 01:50 pm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42900659/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/


Bin Laden killing was legally justified, Holder says
'It was a kill or capture mission ... He made no attempts to surrender'

xupdated 36 minutes ago 2011-05-04T18:57:44
Share Print Font: +-The killing of Osama bin Laden was legally justified, and would have been even if the al-Qaida leader had made some sign that he wished to surrender, Attorney General Eric Holder said Wednesday.

.."The operation in which Osama bin Laden was killed was lawful," Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee. "He was the head of al-Qaida, an organization that had conducted the attacks of September 11th. He admitted his involvement and he indicated that he would not be taken alive. The operation against bin Laden was justified as an act of national self defense."

Video: Officials: Bin Laden unarmed when shot (on this page)
Holder said bin Laden was a legitimate military target and he had made no attempt to surrender to the U.S. forces that stormed his fortified compound near Islamabad on Monday. He was shot in the chest and head.

It was lawful to target an enemy commander in the field and the mission was conducted in the way that was consistent with U.S. laws and values, Holder testified, adding that it was a "kill or capture mission."

"If he had attempted to surrender, I think we should obviously have accepted that, but there was no indication that he wanted to do that. And therefore his killing was appropriate," Holder said.

U.S. acknowledgment on Tuesday that bin Laden was unarmed when killed had raised accusations Washington had violated international law. Exact circumstances of his death remained unclear.

Story: Was it right to kill bin Laden?
Five people were killed in the raid, officials said: bin Laden; his son, Khalid; his most trusted courier, a man who used the nom de guerre Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti; and al-Kuwaiti's wife and brother. The latest White House account leaves open the question of whether there was any gunfire from bin Laden's defenders in his room before the commandos shot him.

Story: Should bin Laden have been captured and tried?
Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said "you have to believe this guy was a walking IED," and that any of the Navy SEALs would have wanted to kill bin Laden as far away as possible from the other members of the American team.

The attorney general agreed with Graham that there was a sound legal basis for the raid.

"It was a kill or capture mission," Holder said, adding "He made no attempts to surrender, and I tend to agree with you that even if he had, there would be a good basis on the part of those very brave Navy Seal team members to do what they did in order to protect themselves and the other people who were in that building."

Holder was under a second day of oversight questioning on Capitol Hill; Tuesday he was questioned by the House Judiciary Committee.

Even as many European leaders congratulated the U.S. government on the operation, many said the slaying was of symbolic value. They pointed out that the terror cells working in Europe have long functioned independently and may try to avenge bin Laden's death.

"The fight against terrorism and extremism has, of course, not ended with this," German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said earlier in the week in Berlin.

Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

© 2010 msnbc.com Reprints


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0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 01:53 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
After all that the US has done to Afghanistan and what it is doing to Pakistan, what is the overwhelming theme in this. Surprise, surprise.

How will this affect our investments there?


Two questions, Cy:

Do you think there is a more conceited nation than the US on the planet?

Do you think there is a more effective terrorist nation than the US on the planet?
Ticomaya
 
  6  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 02:12 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn, speaking of JTT, wrote:
... and you really have become quite trollish.

You make it sound like this is a recent development. Just ignore the schmuck.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 02:33 pm
@Ticomaya,
Fair 'nuff

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 02:35 pm
Wow, this might actually turn out the way I want for once.

Quote:
The Obama administration is seeking to use the killing of Osama bin Laden to accelerate a negotiated settlement with the Taliban and hasten the end of the Afghanistan war, according to U.S. officials involved in war policy.

Administration officials think it could now be easier for the reclusive leader of the largest Taliban faction, Mohammad Omar, to break his group’s alliance with al-Qaeda, a key U.S. requirement for any peace deal. They also think that bin Laden’s death could make peace talks a more palatable outcome for Americans and insulate President Obama from criticism that his administration would be negotiating with terrorists.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/with-bin-ladens-death-us-sees-a-chance-to-hasten-the-end-of-the-afghan-war/2011/05/03/AFOtOukF_print.html

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 02:41 pm
@Builder,
response to your post a few pages back (click on the light blue Builder link to see it) -
I was very against our arming the mujahadeen at the time. So it goes..
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 02:43 pm
@izzythepush,
Haven't read the rest of the last few pages yet so not sure if anyone responded, but a noob is a newbie to a forum, in this case, a2k.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 02:53 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
My point was that you don't know what was going through the minds and hearts of all who witnessed the burial. If there was cheering at the burial ceremony, which may or may not be true, and that I somewhat doubt, even an outward cheerer in a group of cheerers may have somber thoughts. I do imagine there was satisfaction.

And no, good grief, I don't want to be held to a literal interpretation of every figure of speech I use. That would fetter my feathers.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 04:01 pm
@ossobuco,
Clearly I don't know what is going on in the minds and hearts of anyone, but I certainly can speculate, and with a great degree of certainty assume that of the men and women on that ship who knew what was being tossed overboard, most, if not all of them, were hoping he would not rest in peace.

Quote:
And no, good grief, I don't want to be held to a literal interpretation of every figure of speech I use. That would fetter my feathers.


Then you might try not to holding anyone else to that standard.

Just saying...
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 04:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
your style of presenting them


The style is worse than the content.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 04:21 pm
While my first reaction to the news that the compound in which bin laden allegedly lived was close the Pakistani military academy was a double take and skepticism, I just thought of all the Nazis that hid in many countries for many years including this one.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 04:25 pm
@plainoldme,
I remember always thinking that the best place for him to hide would be as a cab driver in New York City and the worst place to hide is where everyone was looking for him in the border areas.
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 04:29 pm
@BillRM,
There is something wryly funny about your cabbie thought. At 6' 5", perhaps driving a cab would have been uncomfortable. I agree with your assessment about the border areas.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 04:40 pm
@Ticomaya,
The coward arises. I half expected to hear you weeping again, Tico, "Oh, the USA isn't a terrorist nation, is it?"

How is it that people like you, so ignorant of reality, can become lawyers?
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 04:41 pm
@JTT,
But not you...it is the human race that is the problem isnt it, you sad little sicko .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2011 04:45 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
The Taliban had offered him up a number of times
IF their conditions were met .....JoinTalibanTerorism has a propensity to extremely exaggerate .

Quote:
Where is your sense of balance, h2oman/okie/BillRM?
What about your sense of balance as to war crimes ? When will I be summoned, you gutter trash .
0 Replies
 
 

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