52
   

Osama Bin Laden is dead

 
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 10:37 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Facts, the truth make zero difference to you, Oralboy, so arguments are totally lost on you.


Nope. I always defend facts and the truth.

And your silly namecalling only makes you look silly.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 10:43 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Nope. I repeatedly defend the truth and the facts.


This is just semen dribbling off your chin, Oralboy. These facts that show that successive US governments have slaughtered millions just to grab their wealth come from US government sources.

This is what makes it so stupendously amazing that even a semen addled brain like yours can avoid the truth.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 10:49 am
@JTT,
Oh well. I'll pay attention again when you start addressing a factual matter.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 11:12 am
@oralloy,
Even US Soldiers are Waking up to the New World Order

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6TlQbuLjIU

============

American Soldiers Are WAKING UP!! SUPPORT OF TAKING AMERICA BACK!!! (StopTheRobbery2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUQ_N_vHc0
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 11:27 am
@oralloy,
You don't know what a "factual matter" is, even when we present it on these boards from reliable sources.
roger
 
  3  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 11:32 am
And another thread bites the dust.

Thanks loads, guys.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 11:34 am
@roger,
You are so anal, Roger.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 12:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
scroll, scroll, scroll.....
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 12:09 pm
@oralloy,
And why might you have scroll scroll scrolled past this?

Even US Soldiers are Waking up to the New World Order

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6TlQbuLjIU

============

American Soldiers Are WAKING UP!! SUPPORT OF TAKING AMERICA BACK!!! (StopTheRobbery2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUQ_N_vHc0
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 12:13 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I just realized my original post contained what will probably be considered a Freudian slip.

I wrote that I didn't believe he was born in the US, but I actually believe he was.


I'm sure you can see how that might affect people's reactions to what you wrote.

Quote:
But even if I believed he was born outside of the US it wouldn't matter (except for the fact that he would be revealed to be a liar). I don't care whether or not our president was born in the US, it is an idiotic disqualification for the office.


Yes, but others don't feel that way, and spreading propaganda about it is a key electoral strategy for the GOP in this election - it's more important than ever for them to successfully define Obama as the 'other.'

Cycloptichorn
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 12:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
How does the right wingers get away with such nonsense as the Obama issue with special note that McCain was not born on US soil yet that raise no problems but Obama who clearly was born on US soil had the nuts going after him to this day.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 12:45 pm
@BillRM,
For the record,
speaking as a right winger,
I do not and have never accepted McCain as being one of us.
I had to (figuratively) hold my nose when voting for him.





David
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 01:01 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
And why might you have scroll scroll scrolled past this?

Even US Soldiers are Waking up to the New World Order

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6TlQbuLjIU

============

American Soldiers Are WAKING UP!! SUPPORT OF TAKING AMERICA BACK!!! (StopTheRobbery2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUQ_N_vHc0


First, because I almost never download video due to my dialup connection.

Second, I did not see any issue that I had a strong urge to disagree with.

If you want to make me respond, say something untrue about the A-bombs on Japan. The need to respond to that is encoded into my DNA.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 03:24 pm
@oralloy,
There is nothing "untrue" about the a-bombing on Japan.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 03:59 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The need to respond to that is encoded into my DNA.


I've not heard it advanced that immorality this deep is embedded in the DNA of Americans but the more I read your pap, Oralboy, the more likely it seems possible.

This horrendous weapon, with all its capacity for death and destruction fully known by US officials, was dropped not once, but twice on innocent civilians.

But after the firebombing of city after city, this added bit of evil obviously felt like just another day at the office.

Quote:

Published on Sunday, August 6, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
Was the Atomic Bombing of Japan Necessary?

by Robert Freeman

Few issues in American history - perhaps only slavery itself - are as charged as the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan. Was it necessary? Merely posing the question provokes indignation, even rage. Witness the hysterical shouting down of the 1995 Smithsonian exhibit that simply dared discuss the question fifty years after the act. Today, another eleven years on, Americans still have trouble coming to terms with the truth about the bombs.

But anger is not argument. Hysteria is not history. The decision to drop the bomb has been laundered through the American myth-making machine into everything from self-preservation by the Americans to concern for the Japanese themselves-as if incinerating two hundred thousand human beings in a second was somehow an act of moral largesse.

Yet the question will not die, nor should it: was dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki a military necessity? Was the decision justified by the imperative of saving lives or were there other motives involved?

The question of military necessity can be quickly put to rest. "Japan was already defeated and dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary." Those are not the words of a latter-day revisionist historian or a leftist writer. They are certainly not the words of an America-hater. They are the words of Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe and future president of the United States. Eisenhower knew, as did the entire senior U.S. officer corps, that by mid 1945 Japan was defenseless.

After the Japanese fleet was destroyed at Leyte Gulf in October 1944, the U.S. was able to carry out uncontested bombing of Japan's cities, including the hellish firebombings of Tokyo and Osaka. This is what Henry H. Arnold, Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces, meant when he observed, "The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell because the Japanese had lost control of their own air." Also, without a navy, the resource-poor Japanese had lost the ability to import the food, oil, and industrial supplies needed to carry on a World War.

As a result of the naked futility of their position, the Japanese had approached the Russians, seeking their help in brokering a peace to end the War. The U.S. had long before broken the Japanese codes and knew that these negotiations were under way, knew that the Japanese had for months been trying to find a way to surrender.

Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, reflected this reality when he wrote, "The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace.the atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, said the same thing: "The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."

Civilian authorities, especially Truman himself, would later try to revise history by claiming that the bombs were dropped to save the lives of one million American soldiers. But there is simply no factual basis for this in any record of the time. On the contrary, the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey reported, "Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped." The November 1 date is important because that was the date of the earliest possible planned U.S. invasion of the Japanese main islands.

In other words, the virtually unanimous and combined judgment of the most informed, senior, officers of the U.S. military is unequivocal: there was no pressing military necessity for dropping the atomic bombs on Japan.

But if dropping the bombs was not driven by military needs, why, then, were they used? The answer can be discerned in the U.S. attitude toward the Russians, the way the War ended in Europe, and the situation in Asia.

U.S. leaders had long hated the communist Russian government. In 1919, the U.S. had led an invasion of Russia - the infamous "White Counter Revolution" - to try to reverse the red Bolshevik Revolution that had put the communists into power in 1917. The invasion failed and the U.S. did not extend diplomatic recognition to Russia until 1932.

Then, during the Great Depression, when the U.S. economy collapsed, the Russian economy boomed, growing almost 500%. U.S. leaders worried that with the War's end, the country might fall back into another Depression. And World War II was won not by the American laissez faire system, but by the top-down, command and control over the economy that the Russian system epitomized. In other words, the Russian system seemed to be working while the American system was plagued with recent collapse and a questionable self-confidence.

In addition, to defeat Germany, the Russian army had marched to Berlin through eastern Europe. It occupied and controlled 150,000 square miles of territory in what is today Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia. At Yalta, in February 1945, Stalin demanded to keep this newly occupied territory. Russia, Stalin rightly claimed, had been repeatedly invaded by western Europeans, from Napoleon to the Germans in World War I and now by Hitler. Russia lost more than 20,000,000 lives in World War II and Stalin wanted a buffer against future invasions.

At this point, in February 1945, the U.S. did not know whether the bomb would work or not. But it unquestionably needed Russia's help to end both the War in Europe and the War in the Pacific. These military realities were not lost on Roosevelt: with no army to displace Stalin's in Europe and needing Stalin's support, Roosevelt conceded eastern Europe, handing the Russians the greatest territorial gain of the War.

Finally and perhaps most importantly, Stalin agreed at Yalta that once the War in Europe was over, he would transfer his forces from Europe to Asia and within 90 days would enter the War in the Pacific against Japan. This is where timing becomes critically important. The War in Europe ended on May 8, 1945. May 8 plus 90 days is August 8. If the U.S. wanted to prevent Russia from occupying territory in east Asia the way it had occupied territory in eastern Europe, it needed to end the war as quickly as possible.

This issue of territory in east Asia was especially important because before the war against Japan, China had been embroiled in a civil war of its own. It was the U.S.-favored nationalists under General Chiang Kai Shek against the communists under Mao Ze Dong. If communist Russia were allowed to gain territory in east Asia, it would throw its considerable military might behind Mao, almost certainly handing the communists a victory once the World War was ended and the civil war was resumed.

Once the bomb was proven to work on July 15, 1945, events took on a furious urgency. There was simply no time to work through negotiations with the Japanese. Every day of delay meant more land given up to Russia and, therefore, a greater likelihood of communist victory in the Chinese civil war. All of Asia might go communist. It would be a strategic catastrophe for the U.S. to have won the War against the fascists only to hand it to its other arch enemy, the communists. The U.S. needed to end the War not in months, or even weeks, but in days.

So, on August 6, 1945, two days before the Russians were to declare war against Japan, the U.S. dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. There was no risk to U.S. forces then waiting for a Japanese response to the demand for surrender. The earliest planned invasion of the island was still three months away and the U.S. controlled the timing of all military engagements in the Pacific. But the Russian matter loomed and drove the decision on timing. So, only three days later, the U.S. dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki. The Japanese surrendered on August 14, 1945, eight days after the first bomb was dropped.

Major General Curtis LeMay commented on the bomb's use: "The War would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the War at all." Except that it drastically speeded the War's end to deprive the Russians of territory in east Asia.

The story of military necessity, quickly and clumsily pasted together after the War's end, simply does not hold up against the overwhelming military realities of the time. On the other hand, the use of the bomb to contain Russian expansion and to make the Russians, in Truman's revealing phrase, "more manageable," comports completely with all known facts and especially with U.S. motivations and interests.

Which story should we accept, the one that doesn't hold together but that has been sanctifiied as national dogma? Or the one that does hold together but offends our self concept? How we answer says everything about our maturity and our capacity for intellectual honesty.

It is sometimes hard for a people to reconcile its history with its own national mythologies - the mythologies of eternal innocence and Providentially anointed righteousness. It is all the more difficult when a country is embroiled in yet another war and the power of such myths are needed again to gird the people's commitment against the more sobering force of facts.

But the purpose of history is not to sustain myths. It is, rather, to debunk them so that future generations may act with greater awareness to avoid the tragedies of the past. It may take another six or even sixty decades but eventually the truth of the bomb's use will be written not in mythology but in history. Hopefully, as a result, the world will be a safer place.

Robert Freeman writes on economics, history, and education. He can be reached at [email protected].

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0806-25.htm
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 04:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
There is nothing "untrue" about the a-bombing on Japan.


As regards the carefully orchestrated "official" US propaganda on this issue, CI, pretty much everything is untrue.

I wonder why that is - time after time, the official US government story line turns out to be just a bunch of flimsy lies.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 05:19 pm
@JTT,
In your eyes, you only see what you want to see. In your world, everybody is perfect, except the US government.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 05:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Look at the facts, CI. When the facts are revealed 10, 20 or 30 years later, the US is shown to do what it well known for doing, ie. vomiting perfidy*

You guys really oughta get together and redevelop these lame lines you keep tossing out. Do you get to use the "boring" line tomorrow, switching with Roger?

Quote:
SEPTEMBER 2, 2010

Vomiting Perfidy.
Since yesterday I have been vomiting my insides out...

My first bout of vomit came after I read a transcript of your President's speech, his speech to the "nation". Because you consider yourselves a nation ?!

It started off with an uneasiness felt in the pit of my stomach, then quickly transformed itself into a queasiness, then into a foul nausea, only to erupt like a dammed out volcano into violent throes of pure vomit...

I have over the past 20 years or so, developed a high intolerance to perfidy and you throughout your history have excelled in perfecting what I am most allergic to...

You literally make me sick.

Change - you clamored like a herd of sheep, while munching, ruminating like cattle every word that is fed to you...Black and White, even those retards who call themselves American Arabs and Muslims rejoiced at Uncle Tom's arrival to the White House.

Oh the "principled", "moralistic" prudish puritanical perverts called Americans, always showing up late for change...always jumping on the bandwagon, when the train has already passed...

The peace loving war mongers of the new world order is what you are. Fake and ignorant to the bone.

So you pride yourselves on being "a good people", a "compassionate" "sharing caring hugging" people -- nothing but Perfidy.

http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/2010/09/vomiting-perfidy.html
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 06:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
In your eyes, you only see what you want to see. In your world, everybody is perfect, except the US government.


You really are one confused little puppy, CI. You know the US government has a two century history of violent war crimes/terrorism/theft, yet you are bound half tight by a lifetime of propaganda - which is harder, the rock or the hard place?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Feb, 2012 06:44 pm
@JTT,
What country do you know that doesn't have atrocities in their past?
 

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